[Card ban idea] List
07 Jul 2018 13:10 #88621
by Lech
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Replied by Lech on topic [Card ban idea] List
We can agree to disagree Kraus.
Pentex is used in absolute majority of winning decks, and allow clutch ousts. The only reason it isn't played more is due to contest issues. It's just too good for what it does. Nobody is denying that it require skill in timing it well, but don't pretend it's not op af. It's not healthy if every deck have to deal with "what is my plan against pentex, and will i play one pentex or two?" question. It's absolutely toxic.
I didn't put Lottery blood on the list, because while it's randomly winning games the nerf to villein decreased it power considerably
Pentex is used in absolute majority of winning decks, and allow clutch ousts. The only reason it isn't played more is due to contest issues. It's just too good for what it does. Nobody is denying that it require skill in timing it well, but don't pretend it's not op af. It's not healthy if every deck have to deal with "what is my plan against pentex, and will i play one pentex or two?" question. It's absolutely toxic.
I didn't put Lottery blood on the list, because while it's randomly winning games the nerf to villein decreased it power considerably
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
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07 Jul 2018 13:22 - 07 Jul 2018 13:23 #88622
by DJHedgehog
There are lots of comparable options, none of them are as efficient as Govern. The Fourth Tradition costs the same and requires a titled vampire, and doesn't have the flexibility of being a bleed card. It is way overtuned for what a card should do. Scouting mission is way more in line with the power level of most other cards.
Big vampires are good in their own right. If Pentex were banned the whole game meta would shift.
This is a long explanation, so I'm sorry in advance. Immortal Grapple invalidates a lot of strategies besides combat ends. Combat ends invalidates all combat strategies aside from immortal grapple (and to a much lesser degree psyche! and telepathic tracking).
I think combat ends should be an action modifier (a la mirror walk). What is now considered "bad combat" is mostly bad because you have to play a lot of cards and then they play one and you do nothing. Without combat ends, dodge allows for counter play via presses and additional strikes making them more important. It also allows for the huge variety of combat that exists in the game to be viable.
I agree, good cards need to exist. But, ubiquity in card selections causes meta stagnation. Govern the Unaligned has been in every dominate deck since 1994, and it's not because it's the only option or the only thing that makes the deck work. Redirection gives the same effect as deflection, you also have murmur of false will. Why do we need the overtuned govern and deflection to define that discipline?
Replied by DJHedgehog on topic [Card ban idea] List
Govern allows big caps to be effective. Get rid of Govern, and small cap decks will proliferate; crappy combat decks and weenie bleed decks will be enabled and big cap decks (and by extension, vote decks [big caps = titles]) will be crippled.
The game has been built around Govern since day one. Banning it will create more issues than it will solve.
There are lots of comparable options, none of them are as efficient as Govern. The Fourth Tradition costs the same and requires a titled vampire, and doesn't have the flexibility of being a bleed card. It is way overtuned for what a card should do. Scouting mission is way more in line with the power level of most other cards.
Big vampires are good in their own right. If Pentex were banned the whole game meta would shift.
Immortal Grapple/Combat Ends (One begets the other, and neither allow for fun counter play. THINK ABOUT THE MELEE WEAPONS.)
What exactly does this solve? Instead of Immortal Grapple countering Strike: combat ends, we will now have strike: dodge countering melee weapon strike. How is this "fun counter play"? Isn't it exactly the same concept?
This is a long explanation, so I'm sorry in advance. Immortal Grapple invalidates a lot of strategies besides combat ends. Combat ends invalidates all combat strategies aside from immortal grapple (and to a much lesser degree psyche! and telepathic tracking).
I think combat ends should be an action modifier (a la mirror walk). What is now considered "bad combat" is mostly bad because you have to play a lot of cards and then they play one and you do nothing. Without combat ends, dodge allows for counter play via presses and additional strikes making them more important. It also allows for the huge variety of combat that exists in the game to be viable.
Ban .44's? Y'all crazy. Get back to me when the Outside The Hourglass and Domain of Evernight ridiculousness is dealt with first
It's OK to have good cards.
I agree, good cards need to exist. But, ubiquity in card selections causes meta stagnation. Govern the Unaligned has been in every dominate deck since 1994, and it's not because it's the only option or the only thing that makes the deck work. Redirection gives the same effect as deflection, you also have murmur of false will. Why do we need the overtuned govern and deflection to define that discipline?
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07 Jul 2018 13:27 #88623
by DJHedgehog
Pentex is too useful. And it goes in every deck. Want to stop an all star? Pentex. Want to have a lunge card? Pentex. Want to slow your pred down? Pentex. The card provides value that shouldn't be available to all decks, and it shows up in basically every deck. That's a tell-tale sign of an overtuned card.
Giants blood is dumb. Should be limited to 5 blood if it's not banned outright. It's free, too swingy, and is just a matter of who draws it first. Not a good design, and again, too ubiquitous.
Replied by DJHedgehog on topic [Card ban idea] List
A statement with which i could not disagree more.Out of unique cards that need to be addressed, the card that matter the most is of course PENTEX.
Pentex is absolutely healthy for the game.
I do not know your reasoning, but some seem to think pentex is a random and arbitrary card. It is actually very skill intensive and requires plenty of skill to get benefit out of. Also skill in defending against it.
In competitive vtes pentex is in no way problematic, but rather essential.
If you hate arbitrary, look at Giants blood. It is probably the only weirdly random power card.
I'll see if i get more time sometime to write more about this.
Pentex is too useful. And it goes in every deck. Want to stop an all star? Pentex. Want to have a lunge card? Pentex. Want to slow your pred down? Pentex. The card provides value that shouldn't be available to all decks, and it shows up in basically every deck. That's a tell-tale sign of an overtuned card.
Giants blood is dumb. Should be limited to 5 blood if it's not banned outright. It's free, too swingy, and is just a matter of who draws it first. Not a good design, and again, too ubiquitous.
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07 Jul 2018 14:23 - 07 Jul 2018 15:14 #88624
by Kraus
'cause I'm definitely saying it's not as OP as you say.
The whole thing with 'everyone plays it' is kind of moot to be honest, since there are plenty of cards that are like that. Carlton goes practically in every deck. Ivory bow is everywhere. Dreams is played in multiple copies even. They are all hindered by their uniqueness. VtES balances stuff on that mechanic.
There are few decks that are wrecked by Pentex, and many of those deserve to be wrecked by it. Enkidu comes to mind, as does Una and other solo Freak drivers. It's a good thing that every player has access to something to deal with them, without committing a whole bunch of their minion card distribution to those threats.
Weenie decks don't give a damn about Pentex. It's a wasted 2
against them. The same applies to many ally decks as well. Mid-cap dementation as well. Heck, all decks that have access to 3+ minions.
As an oust tool it's not much better than Misdirection. The other checks if you have wakes, the other checks if you have bounce.
Direct Intervention is played in every deck. Is that a problem? I'd argue no, certainly not, since it allows every single deck/player to have a level of table control and power in discussions, no matter what your general strategy is.
Pentex is, in my opinion, fairly priced for the effect, and is a card with high skill requirement.
This is, of course, based on a competitive view point. In casuals it can be super annoying to have your for-fun star decks shut down. Even then, if your cross table friends won't help you, well... what can I say?
Lately, as our local meta has shifted towards more competitive decks, I've found that Pentex has less and less of a super high impact, and often is used to deliver a crucial tool-up action. It rarely accomplishes much more. Of course some ousts happen, but that could be done with all sorts of different cards, many less costy than Pentex, and ousts are good for the game. Keep it flowing, keep it moving. Blood has to move.
tl;dr: The fact that DI and Pentex (as well as Carlton etc.) are available to everyone is their biggest strength, design-wise, and keeps them healthy.
Krausedit\\ If you want to ban powerful cards and play with less powerful cards instead, you'll have to broaden your horizons: Mind Rape should go, Heidelberg Castle should go, Monastery of Shadows should go, practically all Infernal cards should go, Spirit Marionette should go, Papillon should go... There's no end to it. Notice how many of those cards are powerful, but different designs; same applies to Parity Shift and Banishment. The latter is in particular super over the top in power level, but what would you have instead? Just count beads, play combat vs. bleed decks as vote decks lose their interesting parts?
Note: Parity Shift and Banishment are on the very top of the power curve. No card should ever, ever reach their powerlevel, let alone top them. Still, it's fine to have them at the moment.
Krausedit\\ It could be an interesting new format though. Cycling 15 banned cards, change every half a year? To try it out.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
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Replied by Kraus on topic [Card ban idea] List
Sure we can. Out of curiosity I'd like to hear your opinion on it in more detail though.We can agree to disagree Kraus.
'cause I'm definitely saying it's not as OP as you say.
The whole thing with 'everyone plays it' is kind of moot to be honest, since there are plenty of cards that are like that. Carlton goes practically in every deck. Ivory bow is everywhere. Dreams is played in multiple copies even. They are all hindered by their uniqueness. VtES balances stuff on that mechanic.
There are few decks that are wrecked by Pentex, and many of those deserve to be wrecked by it. Enkidu comes to mind, as does Una and other solo Freak drivers. It's a good thing that every player has access to something to deal with them, without committing a whole bunch of their minion card distribution to those threats.
Weenie decks don't give a damn about Pentex. It's a wasted 2
against them. The same applies to many ally decks as well. Mid-cap dementation as well. Heck, all decks that have access to 3+ minions.As an oust tool it's not much better than Misdirection. The other checks if you have wakes, the other checks if you have bounce.
Direct Intervention is played in every deck. Is that a problem? I'd argue no, certainly not, since it allows every single deck/player to have a level of table control and power in discussions, no matter what your general strategy is.
Pentex is, in my opinion, fairly priced for the effect, and is a card with high skill requirement.
This is, of course, based on a competitive view point. In casuals it can be super annoying to have your for-fun star decks shut down. Even then, if your cross table friends won't help you, well... what can I say?
Lately, as our local meta has shifted towards more competitive decks, I've found that Pentex has less and less of a super high impact, and often is used to deliver a crucial tool-up action. It rarely accomplishes much more. Of course some ousts happen, but that could be done with all sorts of different cards, many less costy than Pentex, and ousts are good for the game. Keep it flowing, keep it moving. Blood has to move.
tl;dr: The fact that DI and Pentex (as well as Carlton etc.) are available to everyone is their biggest strength, design-wise, and keeps them healthy.
Krausedit\\ If you want to ban powerful cards and play with less powerful cards instead, you'll have to broaden your horizons: Mind Rape should go, Heidelberg Castle should go, Monastery of Shadows should go, practically all Infernal cards should go, Spirit Marionette should go, Papillon should go... There's no end to it. Notice how many of those cards are powerful, but different designs; same applies to Parity Shift and Banishment. The latter is in particular super over the top in power level, but what would you have instead? Just count beads, play combat vs. bleed decks as vote decks lose their interesting parts?
Note: Parity Shift and Banishment are on the very top of the power curve. No card should ever, ever reach their powerlevel, let alone top them. Still, it's fine to have them at the moment.
How so lesser? IMO Psyche and Teletracking are actually somewhat better, since they'll work past the S:CE; in IG the S:CE still remains in hand for the second round, or whatnot. You'll wash their resources instead of postponing them. Truthfully those require a bit of different set-ups, so I'd say they're equal.Combat ends invalidates all combat strategies aside from immortal grapple (and to a much lesser degree psyche! and telepathic tracking)
Krausedit\\ It could be an interesting new format though. Cycling 15 banned cards, change every half a year? To try it out.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
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07 Jul 2018 18:52 - 07 Jul 2018 19:01 #88628
by Lech
Big vampires nowadays have more merits than just ability to play Govern the Unaligned, and if dominate clans will have to diversify their actions, it will be better for the game.
Problem with Grapple is that by default there is no counter. Imagine if it reads:
Now you have also extremely powerful combat card, but with build-in counter (which doesn't affect much matchup with political/bleed deck packing 8 s:ce as they just won't have enough resources to counter it, but it would enable some other combat deck to actually be viable.
Why do you think that defense should be this more card efficient than offense ? Normal s:ce aren't really that problematic, it's about how they:
- are not telegraphed (imagine that most s:ce read: Play at the start of round, you may strike: combat ends this round.
- do much more than just ending combat including (mostly) untaps. So not only out-of-jail card, but a card with benefit as well.
-are extremely cheap (1 or 0 blood)
Given how s:ce work, perhaps they should work as intended (s:CE isn't first first strike anymore, you take initial strike in your face as it was initially in jyhad)
Don't bring this argument, he can still use most jyhad boxes even with pentex, .44, govern and deflection ban.
When it comes to Pentex, it's shutting down stars and making some of your actions go unblocked, you can go with pentex forward or backward, you can make it stay on the table. The other cards you listed of course are super powerful, but way more healthy for the game than pentex (with exception of haidelberg castle, germany, but thats my skewed judgment and i accept that it's not problematic for other players). Carlton is killable, require action to put on the table, can be DI'd. Pentex just go, and outside silver-bullet reversal it's not interactive the turn it comes into play, and later it's mostly YOUR problem, and you have denied acting on the minion it's on until/if you take it off. Sure, crosstable buddies may take it off, but based on tournament play they won't if they have no direct reason to do so. Pentex affect all non-weenie decks, and game is pretty boring if there are just weenies on the table.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Replied by Lech on topic [Card ban idea] List
Big vampires are good in their own right only in the context of Govern the Unaligned not being banned. If Scouting Mission were included in a big cap deck instead of Govern, that deck will suck just a little more, while small cap decks pretty much stay the same. Big caps need all the help they can get.
Big vampires nowadays have more merits than just ability to play Govern the Unaligned, and if dominate clans will have to diversify their actions, it will be better for the game.
You say "invalidates." Not sure why there is such a negative connotation. The correct word is "balances." Trumps are needed in card games to establish balance. This is why Immortal Grapple and S:CE exist. If S:CE did not exist, nobody could bleed or take actions because every minion would be in torpor.
Problem with Grapple is that by default there is no counter. Imagine if it reads:
Immortal Grapple
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Grapple.
:pot: Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant), opposing vampire may discard two combat cards to cancel it.
:POT: As above, with an optional press to continue. If another round occurs, opposing minion must discard a combat card or skip determine range this round.Now you have also extremely powerful combat card, but with build-in counter (which doesn't affect much matchup with political/bleed deck packing 8 s:ce as they just won't have enough resources to counter it, but it would enable some other combat deck to actually be viable.
Your argument supposes there is a 100% chance they are drawing into that one trump card. This is not reality. And what you describe is not "bad combat," it's bad deck building. If you're going to play a lot of combat cards, you better include something that can counter S:CE or whatever that one card is.
Why do you think that defense should be this more card efficient than offense ? Normal s:ce aren't really that problematic, it's about how they:
- are not telegraphed (imagine that most s:ce read: Play at the start of round, you may strike: combat ends this round.
- do much more than just ending combat including (mostly) untaps. So not only out-of-jail card, but a card with benefit as well.
-are extremely cheap (1 or 0 blood)
Without combat ends, all vote and bleed decks need to include a 25-card combat module of presses and dodges/damage prevention instead of 8 combat ends. I'm not sure that such a fantastic idea.
Given how s:ce work, perhaps they should work as intended (s:CE isn't first first strike anymore, you take initial strike in your face as it was initially in jyhad)
So when a newbie buys a box of Jyhad, they can make competitive decks. Or when a oldbie rediscovers their Jyhad collection and wants to play, they can make competitive decks.
Don't bring this argument, he can still use most jyhad boxes even with pentex, .44, govern and deflection ban.
When it comes to Pentex, it's shutting down stars and making some of your actions go unblocked, you can go with pentex forward or backward, you can make it stay on the table. The other cards you listed of course are super powerful, but way more healthy for the game than pentex (with exception of haidelberg castle, germany, but thats my skewed judgment and i accept that it's not problematic for other players). Carlton is killable, require action to put on the table, can be DI'd. Pentex just go, and outside silver-bullet reversal it's not interactive the turn it comes into play, and later it's mostly YOUR problem, and you have denied acting on the minion it's on until/if you take it off. Sure, crosstable buddies may take it off, but based on tournament play they won't if they have no direct reason to do so. Pentex affect all non-weenie decks, and game is pretty boring if there are just weenies on the table.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
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