file Rules update suggestion: Pre-Range into Preparation Step

08 Oct 2017 12:02 - 08 Oct 2017 12:03 #83768 by TwoRazorReign

The addition of a new step is being considered, so feel free to write down any idea you may have to make the game easier to understand and to learn.


If the rulebook needs to be made clearer, it would be massively preferable to just have a "before range" step spelled out in 6.4.1, rather than renaming it. There are thousands upon thousands of cards out there that say that, and if the aim is to streamline it for new players, them having to learn about the "preparation step" and what "before range is determined" means because they will see it on cards played by other players all the time - well, that's a whole lot less streamlined and more for them to learn.


I don't think the idea is to simply make the rulebook clearer, it's to make the game easier to play. Those are two different things. I agree that just adding a before range step to the rulebook would make things much clearer without any other changes to the game. I also think that, in theory, renaming it to "preparation step" would work if the card text could be updated. But all this would be getting too far ahead of things right now. There are so many colloquial rules that the rulebook does not address (eg, environmental damage, bearer and user of equipment). Those things should be codified in the rulebook before anything should be renamed and streamlined.
Last edit: 08 Oct 2017 12:03 by TwoRazorReign.

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09 Oct 2017 19:52 #83779 by Blooded Sand

I don't think the idea is to simply make the rulebook clearer, it's to make the game easier to play. Those are two different things. I agree that just adding a before range step to the rulebook would make things much clearer without any other changes to the game. I also think that, in theory, renaming it to "preparation step" would work if the card text could be updated. But all this would be getting too far ahead of things right now. There are so many colloquial rules that the rulebook does not address (eg, environmental damage, bearer and user of equipment). Those things should be codified in the rulebook before anything should be renamed and streamlined.

Of course there is the added 'note' of effects played before range, but for demoing, learning the ropes, and streamlining the card texts and rulebook, I'd suggest the following:

Think that was quite clearly OP's intent. Adding enviro damage to the rulebook is a good idea, but bearer and user is very clear, as long as you are fluent in the language the cards are written in.

:assa: :flight: :QUI: :OBF: :POT: :FOR: :TEM: :DOM:

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09 Oct 2017 22:00 #83787 by TwoRazorReign

I don't think the idea is to simply make the rulebook clearer, it's to make the game easier to play. Those are two different things. I agree that just adding a before range step to the rulebook would make things much clearer without any other changes to the game. I also think that, in theory, renaming it to "preparation step" would work if the card text could be updated. But all this would be getting too far ahead of things right now. There are so many colloquial rules that the rulebook does not address (eg, environmental damage, bearer and user of equipment). Those things should be codified in the rulebook before anything should be renamed and streamlined.

Of course there is the added 'note' of effects played before range, but for demoing, learning the ropes, and streamlining the card texts and rulebook, I'd suggest the following:

Think that was quite clearly OP's intent.


What was the OP's intent? Streamlining the rulebook? Because when I read "streamlining card texts," in my opinion, that's more about making the game easier to play than just clarifying what's in the rulebook.

Adding enviro damage to the rulebook is a good idea, but bearer and user is very clear, as long as you are fluent in the language the cards are written in.


Actually, I just realized bearer is defined in the rulebook. That's probably why you think it's clear.

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09 Oct 2017 23:35 #83789 by Boris The Blade
Pre-range and end of round definitely need to be in the rulebook. Those are major phases where pretty much any combat deck is supposed to play something. The immortal grapple timing is also awkward, but it is pretty much the only card to play in that phase, so I am not sure whether it is worth adding it to the rulebook.

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10 Oct 2017 05:19 #83791 by Boris The Blade

If the rulebook needs to be made clearer, it would be massively preferable to just have a "before range" step spelled out in 6.4.1, rather than renaming it. There are thousands upon thousands of cards out there that say that, and if the aim is to streamline it for new players, them having to learn about the "preparation step" and what "before range is determined" means because they will see it on cards played by other players all the time - well, that's a whole lot less streamlined and more for them to learn.

We must work under the assumption that new players will have easy access to new cards with a cleaned up wording, because otherwise it means that publishing VTES is not economically viable and the whole discussion is moot anyway. So instead of worrying about the cards out there, let us try to make the next edition as good as it can be. Changes of wording and templating are as old as CCGs, and after the mandatory torch and pitchfork phase people get used to them and start seeing the good in the new designs.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ashur, Bloodartist

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10 Oct 2017 08:31 - 10 Oct 2017 08:48 #83794 by Kraus

What was the OP's intent? Streamlining the rulebook? Because when I read "streamlining card texts," in my opinion, that's more about making the game easier to play than just clarifying what's in the rulebook.

To be fair, that's kind of irrelevant to the discussion in my opinion. :) All I'm saying is the game would ultimately benefit from it.

In my experience trying to explain the 'play before range is determined' for newer players is more daunting than it would have to be. I'd guess a 'preparation' clause and/or keyword would make it easier and faster to grasp and teach.

The question of environmental damage is a good one, but kind of beside the point here. FYI I'm all for it if environmental damage gets added into the rulebook, but in that case it should be added to the cards as well. Make Carrion Crows read "The opposing minion takes 1R environmental damage--" for example, to differentiate it from damage dealt (considering Disarm and Pulled Fangs). BUT, that could make into another thread altogether.

However, the "Grapple window" is more in line with the topic at hand, as the whole thread could be broadened to touch the combat round sequence as a whole.

I was thinking if there should be a 'Grapple window' in the rulebook, but effectively it only considers one card: Immortal Grapple. No other 'grapple' card share the same timing. Thin Blood does however. We could've changed Grapple cards to all work in the 'pre strikes' window, and work so that they set the strike for the initial strike phase, but I'm not sure if that's really needed. That would effectively warrant the change of some cards and tinkering with their power level just to add another phase into combat to accomodate the needs of two cards in the game (one of which is pretty good [Thin Blood] and the other meta defining [IG]).

Not really sure what to think here. I guess, if I'd do any changes to that, I'd just change the wording of IG and Thin Blood to "Play once range has been set to close this round" (1) to better tie it into the end of a familiar phase (more intuitive). The rulebook doesn't exactly define the terminology for what happens when no more maneuvers are played, but the example in it uses the term 'set to' after no more cards or effects are played. That could solve some corner cases (which I've witnessed actually) where the following happens:

A: I maneuver to close.
B: Okay, I'm fine with that.
A: Moving to strikes.
B: Yeah. I'm striking Maj--
A: Wait! I have to react before strikes!

Whereas we could have:

A: I maneuver to close.
B: Okay, I'm fine with that.
A: Now that we're set close, at the end of the phase I can Grapple you.
B: Ah, okay. Now, moving to strikes I guess I'll just Slam! you.

And so on.

It's a minor thing and would essentially be the same, but I can see the sequencing being a bit more intuitive.

Now, as for Preparation, I'll try to find some time to rewrite the relevant parts of the rulebook to give an idea of what I'm thinking.

Sure, it's a possibility of adding a new paragraph to the rulebook for 'before range'. The continued relevance of old card text is a really important point, but getting a revised and a bit more easily accessible core game or a starter would be even more important I think.

I'll try to get some writing done when I find the time.

Krausedit\\ Oh, and sure, 'end of round' should definitely find it's way into the rulebook as well. It's so crucial.

Krausedit\\ I do realize that to many this would seem irrelevant and a non-topic. It doesn't really change the game as is. If that's how you feel and can't be bothered, please don't. :) These are minor tweaks for better accessability that aims for the next starter release, and doesn't really (or shouldn't) affect veterans.




(1) Card text edit suggestions:

Name: Thin Blood
[FN:C2/PA2]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Quietus
[qui] Only usable after range is set to close. The opposing vampire burns 1 blood. A vampire may play only one Thin Blood each round of combat.
[QUI] As above, but the opposing vampire burns 2 blood.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

Name: Immortal Grapple
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, Sabbat:U, SW:U/PB, FN:PG, CE:U/PB2, Third:U, LotN:PG2, KoT:U/PB3, HttB:PGar3]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
Only usable after range is set to close. Grapple.
[pot] Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round.
[POT] As above, with an optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is set to close range; skip the determine range step for that round.
Artist: Clint Langley; L. A. Williams; Avery Butterworth

Name: Three's a Crowd
[HttB:C]
Cardtype: Combat
Clan: Blood Brother
Cost: 1 blood
Requires a ready unlocked Blood Brother of the same circle as another one you control in combat.
Only usable before range is determined. The range this round is automatically set to close, and the Blood Brother in combat gets an optional press, only usable to continue combat.
Artist: Avery Butterworth

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
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Last edit: 10 Oct 2017 08:48 by Kraus.

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