file New Player: Basic Game or Advanced Game and / or Variants

18 Mar 2018 01:13 #85840 by DanielG
Thanks for the insight guys!

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18 Mar 2018 12:53 #85842 by jamesatzephyr

For the love of Caine I can't recall Jyhad having any kind of basic or advanced rules you talk about there. Can't verify since I don't have my VTES stuff at hand (actually stashed away all different versions of the rulebook but all these are hidden away for the time being).


It wasn't in Jyhad. It was added in the V:TES base set in 1995.

The apparent intent is relatively benign. It's sort of like if you were sitting down and introducing a new player to the game, you perhaps wouldn't go into all the bells and whistles right away - you wouldn't give them a deck packed with tricky combat decisions, relying on knowledge of likely defences and whether or not you'll draw into Blur before throwing out a Taste of Death or whatever.

However, some of the simplifications really mess up how the game works. Combat is simplified, but much more lethal. Some of the simplifications made in the base game aren't explicitly overturned in the advanced game as worded in the rulebook. For example, a problem I remember running into personally is that steal blood is defined in the basic game as burning the opponent if they hit zero blood. This is because everyone burns when they hit zero blood in the basic game. The everyone burns bit is overturned in the advanced rules (because it introduces torpor etc.), but the effect of steal blood isn't redefined. This was quickly fixed in a ruling or errata, but it caused issues when I was learning the game and internet access was less freely available.

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18 Mar 2018 13:20 #85843 by Lönkka
Still don't remember even noticing it at that time... :D

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18 Mar 2018 15:34 #85845 by ICL

  • I currently have a Nosferatu, Toreador, Gangrel, Brujah and Malkavian deck using cards from mainly the base set and 1 or 2 cards from the early expansions. The decks are probably not good :|
    [/ul]


    I would play with standard rules and just play simpler cards/effects.

    I would warn you that it is not easy having demo decks play well with each other. In particular, a Malk deck is likely to just stealth bleed constantly with minimal interaction unless it has a deck with bounce as its prey or the prey gets up significant intercept early. If you do make the Malk deck more diverse with intercept and weapons or whatever, a player is likely going to ask "Why am I playing with these cards when I could just keep bleeding at stealth and run over everyone?".

    Meanwhile, the Brujah, Gangrel, and Nos may have rush cards and just annihilate the Malk's ready region if they realize how efficient stealth bleed is, which isn't pro-fun, either. Tournament level play gives plenty of tools to make these things work better or people just accept that there may be unfun results.

    Nosferatu demo decks are often frustrating because they either play like inferior Malk stealth bleed decks or are way too unfocused. Constructed play helps deal with discipline imbalances in the game.

    Gangrel demo decks are hard to build because it's hard to decide where to focus that has any meaningful impact on the game. Sure, if Brujah and Gangrel sit there and fight constantly, they can both enjoy playing a bunch of combat cards, but there are issues with interacting with voting, stealth, and there's routinely problems with ousting power.

    Brujah have the problem of how to defend against anything. Might get enough titles in play to defend against Toreador (or Ventrue) vote but probably not. Gangrel, Malk, Nos can just stealth by your usual demo deck all night.

    I realize you don't necessarily have options, but I generally find that a better way to teach how the game typically plays is Malk, Tor, Trem, Ventrue, as you get four clans with bounce and bleed disciplines.

    Given what you have to work with, figure out how to give the clans with lesser ousting power more oust, figure out how to have every deck survive Malks just constantly bleeding. I'd say a minimum of five Blood Dolls/Minion Taps/Villeins in the Brujah, Gangrel, and Nos decks. Don't forget to put wake effects into decks. Alternatively, as the Malks may be an outlier compared to the others (so many demo decks are), could try to avoid using them and have the rest play a more fighty game.
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    18 Mar 2018 21:04 #85848 by Ke.

    I would play with standard rules and just play simpler cards/effects.


    The quick start decks on Amaranth have been designed to use relatively simple cards and be reasonably balanced between them:

    amaranth.vtes.co.nz/#quickstart

    Whenever new players join the play group we all use one of these decks and normally give them the Malk' 94 so they've got a pretty good chance of ousting someone.

    Anyone can contribute to these and submit a deck. The guidelines are:

    • Decks should have a description and include rough overview on how to play
    • Decks should be close to 60 cards in size (less to print)
    • Decks should focus on one or two mechanics only
    • Cards should be fairly simple and not contain walls of text

    The goal is to have a deck for each clan:
    docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rzRmVy6YTEDVC0zAtTpoAXrU2mGLglOXpmzLPUWTNxA/edit#gid=0

    Submissions welcome.
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    19 Mar 2018 09:29 #85855 by Bloodartist


    I would warn you that it is not easy having demo decks play well with each other. In particular, a Malk deck is likely to just stealth bleed constantly with minimal interaction unless it has a deck with bounce as its prey or the prey gets up significant intercept early.


    Kind of why I think malk 94 might not be the best option for the beginner deck... Yes its simple, but its lack of meaningful interaction doesn't really teach the player much, nor is it necessarily fun to play. Bleeding is a key component of VTES, but you don't necessarily need to make the deck exclusively about bleeding.

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