Progeny sect change

Greets!

I don't know if I recall correctly, but Gangrel's default sect is independent. So if a camarilla gangrel creates new vampires, via Third Tradition or Embrace, the newly created vampires don't get to be camarilla, right? :/

Following on this thread, if I change clan via Clan Impersonation, does the sect follow? For example, a camarilla Ventrue becomes Lasrombra. Does he automacally change sect to sabbat too?

How about the other way around? If only the sect changes, will the vampire become of a different clan? For example, Fall of the Sabbat is in play, do Gangrel antitribu become Gangrel?

Name: Third Tradition: Progeny
AKA: The Third Tradition: Progeny
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, KoT:U]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar.
Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn.
Artist: L. A. Williams; Julie Collins

Name: The Embrace
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, CE:R2, KoT:R]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile vampire.
Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique vampire with 1 capacity of the same clan as the acting vampire. This vampire must hunt this turn.
Artist: Pete Venters; Mark Nelson

Name: Clan Impersonation
[AH:C2, CE:C]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 blood
+1 stealth action.
Choose a clan and put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire is considered to be of the chosen clan instead of his or her original clan (if any). This vampire can burn this card as an action.
Artist: Max Shade Fellwalker

Malachy wrote:

I don't know if I recall correctly, but Gangrel's default sect is independent. So if a camarilla gangrel creates new vampires, via Third Tradition or Embrace, the newly created vampires don't get to be camarilla, right? :/

Unless a breed card specifies otherwise (as it does with, say, Tumnimos) the newly created vampire takes the default sect for that clan. Which for Gangrel is Independent.

Malachy wrote:

Following on this thread, if I change clan via Clan Impersonation, does the sect follow? For example, a camarilla Ventrue becomes Lasrombra. Does he automacally change sect to sabbat too?

Yes. From the rulebook, 10: "If a vampire changes clans (by means of a Clan Impersonation card, for example) to a clan that belongs to a different sect, he changes sects as well."

Note that the clan must change for that to happen. For example, if Lucita (Lasombra, Independent) plays Clan Impersonation to Lasombra, her clan doesn't change, so she stays independent.

Malachy wrote:

How about the other way around? If only the sect changes, will the vampire become of a different clan? For example, Fall of the Sabbat is in play, do Gangrel antitribu become Gangrel?

No. Changing your sect has no effect on your clan. You're still whatever your clan was, but with a different sect. A Camarilla Lasombra is still a Lasombra for the purpose of clan cards etc. A Sabbat Toreador is not a Toreador antitribu.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Malachy wrote:

I don't know if I recall correctly, but Gangrel's default sect is independent. So if a camarilla gangrel creates new vampires, via Third Tradition or Embrace, the newly created vampires don't get to be camarilla, right? :/

Unless a breed card specifies otherwise (as it does with, say, Tumnimos) the newly created vampire takes the default sect for that clan. Which for Gangrel is Independent.

Is this referenced somewhere?

ulph wrote:

Is this referenced somewhere?

It's somewhat inherent in the concept of "default sect", specified in section 10 of the rulebook - a vampire created by The Embrace, Third Tradition etc. doesn't say what sect it is, therefore it is the default sect. Similarly, it doesn't specify what its strength is, so it has the default strength (see 6.4.5 of the rulebook).

However, rulings have been given on the matter, such as:
[LSJ 20020326]

LSJ wrote:

> > > If a member of a normally independent Clan/Bloodline becomes a member
> > > of the Camarilla through writ of acceptance, or is already Camarilla,
> > > then becomes a Prince and creates a Vampire through "the third
> > > tradition, Progeny" or "the embrace", what sect is the new Vampire.
> > > Does it follow the normal sect allegiance of the Clan/Bloodline, or is
> > > it Camarilla loyal?
[...]
> The new vampire is the same CLAN as the acting vampire, and belongs
> to the default sect of that clan.

Thanks for the catch.

Something we've (*) considered over the past few years is eliminating default sect. It would require updates to some cards (such as Third Trad) to specify that sect is inherited. There's also the potential for The Eldest Are Kholo to become overpowered.

The benefits include simplicity (another paragraph from the rulebook removed) as well as making it cleaner to handle changes in the WoD storyline.

Open question for you all: what potential issues do you see with eliminating default sect?

(*) By "we've", I mean the VEKN Design Team and Rules Team as well as Black Chantry Productions.

BenPeal wrote:

Open question for you all: what potential issues do you see with eliminating default sect?

Nothing comes to mind, but then again, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of rulings and errata.

Eliminating the default sect rule does make fact that antitribu clans exist a little more awkward, but if y'all are issuing sweeping changes... *whistles innocently* we could probably just fold them into their non-antitribu counterparts. The concept of SPOOKY OPPOSITE WORLD CLANS was lame when it was introduced.