file Marthe Dizier clarificatiion

21 May 2019 16:25 #94992 by blackday
Regarding the use of Marthe Dizier's ability can she use a superior psyche to begin a new combat and then reclaim it using her ability.

Name: Marthe Dizier
Capacity: 10
Type: Vampire
Group: 3
Clan: Toreador antitribu
Disciplines: pro AUS CEL OBF PRE
Set/Rarity: Gehenna:U
Artist: Peter Bergting
CardText: Sabbat. Black Hand: When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she played during that combat from your ash heap to your hand. +1 bleed.

Name: Psyche!
Type: Combat
PoolCost:
BloodCost:
CardText: [cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.

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21 May 2019 18:35 #94998 by Hakuron
It depends on if "at the end of a round" (Psyche!) is considered to be a part of "during the combat" (Marthe Dizier).
As far as I know, this is not the case.

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21 May 2019 19:03 #95001 by kschaefer
The end of a round of combat is still combat and combat cards are played there: Psyche!, Taste of Vitae, Pulled Fangs, etc.

Note that the original card text for Psyche! is what is causing the confusion. There were many old rulings about it (I think some may even be found on this site), but the text was updated to be played during combat instead of after combat. So, it's a combat card like any other.

Marthe can use her special to retrieve it.

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21 May 2019 22:48 #95008 by blackday
This part of the card rulings for psyche is what us confusing.
Psyche!:

The superior will cancel any "continue action" effect produced during the preceding combat (e.g. Form of Mist) [RTR 19950509]
The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]
Is played before superior Freak Drive or inferior Cats' Guidance can be played to untap one of the combatants. (The combatants will have to wait until after the next combat ends to play those cards.) [LSJ 19981216]
No new cost need be paid for the block (Archon, Aching Beauty, Donal, etc.) [TOM 19960303]
The superior can be played before or after replacing any "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards. [LSJ 19990322]
Superior cannot be played if there is already a combat queued (with, for example, Blissful Agony) [RTR 20020501]

So is the psyche used at superior still part of the combat that ended thus allowing Marthe to use her ability or part of the 2nd new combat?

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21 May 2019 23:16 #95009 by kschaefer
First, here's the current card text:
Name: Psyche!
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.

The superior will cancel any "continue action" effect produced during the preceding combat (e.g. Form of Mist) [RTR 19950509]

This has nothing to do with _when_ Psyche! is played. It merely clarifies the interaction of Psyche! and continue action effect.

The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]

This ruling has been obviated by text change; it should probably be removed at this point.

Original text: Only usable at the end of a combat where both combatants are still ready. Combat starts again. This is considered an entirely new combat, so weapons can contribute their maneuvers for a second time, and so forth.

This meant combat had to end to play the card, so it was a combat card played outside of combat. Later versions of the card use the new text (above), which clearly specifies when the card can be play (at the end of a round of combat), which is during the combat before it ends.

Is played before superior Freak Drive or inferior Cats' Guidance can be played to untap one of the combatants. (The combatants will have to wait until after the next combat ends to play those cards.) [LSJ 19981216]

This ruling is not about when to play the card only when Action Modifiers may be played when combats are queued. The may be played after the queued combat resolves (if another combat is queue, you must continue to wait).

No new cost need be paid for the block (Archon, Aching Beauty, Donal, etc.) [TOM 19960303]

This is not a ruling about when Psyche! can be played. It is a clarification of block effects. There is no "new block" when Psyche! occurs, so those effects are not applied a second time.

The superior can be played before or after replacing any "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards. [LSJ 19990322]

This is no longer true due to text updates; it should probably be removed at this point.

Psyche! is now played during combat and "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards cannot be replaced before it is played.

Superior cannot be played if there is already a combat queued (with, for example, Blissful Agony) [RTR 20020501]

This is the general rule that only one combat may be queued at any given time.

So is the psyche used at superior still part of the combat that ended thus allowing Marthe to use her ability or part of the 2nd new combat?

It is part of the combat that ended.

Also, here's the LSJ ruling about the ability. I believe this was made even during the period of time where Psyche! was played after combat, but works because of ordering.

I haven't found a newer ruling and, if anything, because of the text change to Psyche! it's more clear now than before.

Would be great if Ankha could confirm that the outdated nature of those rulings (and possibly archive/remove them).
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22 May 2019 01:03 #95010 by blackday
Yes would love to get Ankha's take on this.

Another question pertaining to Marthe can she use psyche as a press. And when combat is ending use her ability to reclaim psyche and then play it as the superior version ti start a new combat? I was thinking no, but there is a timing issue.

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