What would you like to see in a new expansion?

Do you think the Tzimisce are a "worse clan" than the Baali, and the Guruhi, and the Ahrimanes? Because based on your metric, that's what the TWDA says.

Yes, I do in fact. Guruhi have an ousting mechanism (presence), can defend as well as Tzims if you want because of No Secrets. Plus, animalism and auspex do not differ much when it comes to practical blocking. They also get acceleration and a bunch of useful specials on their vampires thanks to them being budgeted post-CE instead of pre-CE.

Baali are not a better clan per se, but they're not supposed to be played as a clan, with them being a bloodline and all. Most Baali decks in the TWDA are Cybele/Nergal kind of decks which are just as much a Baali deck as a Horatio Piper speedghoul or Lambach wall decks are Tzimisce decks. Also, Baali come bedgeted post-CE and get too many design points after Infernal got reworded so their vampires tend to be

This all opposed to pre-CE budgeted Sabbat Tzims.

Maybe you're looking at a different TWDA than I am.

I dunno, but from your posts (not just this one) it really feels that you're either playing a different game or the people you play with play really bad decks.

Yes, all of that *can* be done with those disciplines, IF THERE ACTUALLY WAS A PLAYABLE CRYPT. There isn't. It's expensive, cluttered with useless out of clan disciplines, cornercase specials and lacks any sort of synergy. Yes, Corine and Caliban are good vampires. Lolita has VIC which is cute for a 4-cap but VIC alone doesn't get anything done. She'd be better if she had AUS vic instead (such as Devin, who would in turn synergize better if (s)he had ani AUS VIC or ANI aus VIC).

Why on earth are you going around defending bad cards and bad clans and claiming they are just "hard to use" or "different". Just because you can find niche examples or think up card combo's that fit the disciplines that doesn't mean the clan's good. The game's 17 years old. The meta has been stagnant for 2 years. I'm fairly sure the collective minds of V:TES players have figured out by now what's good and what's not.

Izaak wrote:

Yes, I do in fact. Guruhi have an ousting mechanism (presence), can defend as well as Tzims if you want because of No Secrets. Plus, animalism and auspex do not differ much when it comes to practical blocking. They also get acceleration and a bunch of useful specials on their vampires thanks to them being budgeted post-CE instead of pre-CE.

Baali are not a better clan per se, but they're not supposed to be played as a clan, with them being a bloodline and all. Most Baali decks in the TWDA are Cybele/Nergal kind of decks which are just as much a Baali deck as a Horatio Piper speedghoul or Lambach wall decks are Tzimisce decks. Also, Baali come bedgeted post-CE and get too many design points after Infernal got reworded so their vampires tend to be

This all opposed to pre-CE budgeted Sabbat Tzims.

First off, I think it's a fallacy to simply compare pre-CE vs post-CE costing.

Sure, some of the larger Group 2 Tzimisce might have an extra point if they were designed nowadays, but the Group 4 Tzimisce benefit from the more generous point scheme yet those are the vampires you dislike.

In addition, it has been a gradual process of more generous costing (CE wasn't a magic turning point). For example, many Third Edition and Keepers of Tradition vampires tend to have more "points" than even CE, Anarchs, and Black Hand vampires.

You forget that the Sabbat edition had an extreme variance. Lots of overcosted vampires and a couple of vampires with way too many points.

Overall, the Tzimisce actually came out quite well, especially compared to the other Sabbat clans. Violet Tremaine is really the only wallpaper vampire. Stravinsky's a tad weak compared to modern day Archbishops, but he's at least usable (compared to some of his contemporaries like Imogen and Ethan Locke). The Tzimisce were spared from having a "4 for 5" vampire (5-caps with just four inferiors and that's it). And besides Violet Tremaine, they aren't saddled with vampires with random out-of-clans (Shane Grimald, Pieter, Blaise,
Ramiro, Josef, Lolita).

When it comes to Group 2 Tzimisce:

Dragos
Corine Marcon
Devin Bisley
Lolita Houston
Wendy Wade
Horatio

would be comparable to what you'd see today.

Lambach would still be stronger than most Cardinals or 10-caps you see nowadays.

Anton and Meshenka would probably get another discipline point (though likely an out-of-clan, so it wouldn't make them significantly better in the Tzimisce decks they're currently in). Stravinsky would get one or two more points, once again probably in out-of-clan disciplines.

Violet Tremaine has issues based on her discipline spread, so throwing her extra points probably wouldn't fix things too much (though a superior or two would be nice). I seem to recall rumors that she was supposed to be a 5-cap, which would explain a lot.

Maybe you're looking at a different TWDA than I am.

I dunno, but from your posts (not just this one) it really feels that you're either playing a different game or the people you play with play really bad decks.

If you took the time to look, you'd see that response was directed towards aria, who claimed that:

Seriouslly, tzimisce have 2 "competitive" decks : trap horrid and war ghoul ( speed and piper)

, which is inconsistent with the TWDA information that you yourself cited.

Yes, all of that *can* be done with those disciplines, IF THERE ACTUALLY WAS A PLAYABLE CRYPT. There isn't. It's expensive, cluttered with useless out of clan disciplines, cornercase specials and lacks any sort of synergy. Yes, Corine and Caliban are good vampires. Lolita has VIC which is cute for a 4-cap but VIC alone doesn't get anything done. She'd be better if she had AUS vic instead (such as Devin, who would in turn synergize better if (s)he had ani AUS VIC or ANI aus VIC).

Where are all these "useless out-of-clan disciplines" in Group 2? Ignoring Violet, you don't even have any out-of-clans at all at capacity less than 8 (which is extremely efficient). Meshenka has no out-of-clans. Stravinsky has one, inferior Potence.

Plus I think you're underestimating the strength of Vicissitude. Even inferior Vicissitude can be extremely scary. I recall many a tournament table that has been wrecked by a weenie Vicissitude deck (several of those by Brian Moritz, who I hardly consider someone who plays "really bad decks.").

Why on earth are you going around defending bad cards and bad clans and claiming they are just "hard to use" or "different".

Why on earth can't you accept that it's okay for different people to have different opinions on a particular issue? Sure, you might think a given card or clan is "bad" - that's your perspective. But other people can think differently. I'm sorry if the fact that I am not agreeing with you is frustrating you.

Just because you can find niche examples or think up card combo's that fit the disciplines that doesn't mean the clan's good. The game's 17 years old. The meta has been stagnant for 2 years. I'm fairly sure the collective minds of V:TES players have figured out by now what's good and what's not.

How long did it take for players to finally discover the old Archon-not-affected-by-NRA loophole? Why are players only now discovering some of the tricks with Outside the Hourglass (particularly with Disarm)? It took players years to learn that they were apparently playing Deflection wrong. Most of the parts for Girls decks have been around for quite some time (in fact, the TWDA even has one as early as 2007), so why have Girls decks only been super popular (and problematic) recently?

To state Tzimisce is a weak clan is strange in my opinion. They may have some difficulties with the regular use of Villein (and the resulting bloat without doing actions) in the newer Metagame. But Tzim.-decks are very strong by either block like hell and punish with aggr. damage or bleed and bruise/stealth. Sasha Vykos Advanced is a powerhouse, they have very good midcaps. Not every clan that lacks dom or pre is bad. Just think of the tremendous versatility of Vicissitude. The big eye (AUS) is mighty anyway. Ani is a nice add-on. I'm surprised that there are people who sneer at that clan.

I think Izaak has a point that relative to G2/3, G4/5 Tzimisce are weak. My belief is that since the non-Sabbat clans got lots of good vampires in G4/5/6, that people are playing them disproportionately and therefore getting more wins with them in the TWDA. I think Izaak overstates his point a bit for emphasis, but it is still valid. There are no titled G5 Sabbat vampires AT ALL. This really limits their political power greatly, especially compared to the G4/5 Camarilla IC/Justicars/Princes. It is my hope that the new set will address many of these obvious issues. Time will tell.

Jeff wrote:

There are no titled G5 Sabbat vampires AT ALL.

I suppose that's because they get the black hand trait. I may indicate that Black hand card are a bit too weak to be considered equivalent to camarilla title. Or that black hand card are underrated, I can't really tell.