file Balancing Ashur Tablets

22 Jul 2014 19:20 #63896 by Jeff Kuta

...Which is in many cases (Id guess 65-78% of the time) what happens with voter cap. You already were passing a vote with a 10 cap justicar, you have 2-3 princes as well, you called a KRC and had cap and awe in hand. You AWE for 6, gain 12, and have 20 votes.


If you can get that set up, you deserve to Voter Cap for a lot (and gain 2 pool).

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23 Jul 2014 02:40 #63903 by Juggernaut1981
No player deserves a single counter more than 1 from a Voter Cap whenever possible. They are ousting their prey and working towards gaining 6 pool + 1VP... any other counters you let them have is your own foolishness. It's not about 'deserving' things.

The point still stands Ankha & Jeff... Voter Cap is easy to dump counters into play and it works while you still go about ousting your prey.

For Summon Soul to be equivalent to Ashur Tablets, it needs to be changed to give 4 cards to the library and 1 pool at Superior. Then you're comparing effects with effects... because being able to be blocked is a bigger risk cost than basically crossing your fingers that people are not holding Wash/Sudden Reversel.

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23 Jul 2014 04:49 #63906 by Jeff Kuta

No player deserves a single counter more than 1 from a Voter Cap whenever possible. They are ousting their prey and working towards gaining 6 pool + 1VP... any other counters you let them have is your own foolishness. It's not about 'deserving' things.


They do certainly deserve to gain the full benefit of playing a Voter Captivation successfully. They took a successful action, passed a successful referendum and had a special card in play that provides that effect. Kudos to the vote decks!

Do you have problems with Social Charm, Legal Manipulation and Kindred Spirits too? Oust your prey and gain pool...with a single card!

The point still stands Ankha & Jeff... Voter Cap is easy to dump counters into play and it works while you still go about ousting your prey.


"Easy"? Says who? That point is debatable. See my above contrast/compare with Con Boon.

For Summon Soul to be equivalent to Ashur Tablets, it needs to be...


A master card.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
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23 Jul 2014 07:37 #63910 by porphyrion
I know I will be oversimplifying things rather a lot here but -as a 'general rule' for Vtes-card design- you could say that any card that adds 5 or more counters (blood or pool) to the game in one go should raise some flags unless there are some very very very serious drawbacks attached (not like e.g Abactor with a Mindraped vampire or with Muaziz/Ariadne).
I never understood how Fifth Tradition went to 4 counters (5 would have been ideal here, I feel) and Voter Cap as an 'en passant'-modifier was allowed to stay exactly the same... A Giant's Blood + 2 pool every time you pass a vote with enough votes. Pretty crazy when you consider all the easy ways of gaining votes in some games/metas.
Other examples of cards that are potentially game-disrupting IMHO because they add too many counters at once are Ravnos Carnival (6+ counters and you know the game is all but decided), Villeining an 11-cap down to next to nothing (preferably followed by a Giant's Blood and another Villein), Concert Tour though this *does* have severe limitations because of its built-in delay and the small capacities of all-non-Scout Y. :doca: , Renewed Vigour @:OBE: (also OK thanks to the Scarcity of :salu: and the fact that they can only play it on other vampires besides themselves, Festivo, Alamuth + Revolutionary Council, ...

In short, I feel Vtes was not made for near-infinite 'dotcom-bubble' or MtG-amounts of counters, but for the more realistic and reasonable '1 to 5' amounts. It is of course a lot of fun to see where it might go with the gloves off but neigh-unfixable 'Return to Innocence'-fiasco's are always SO damn near.

Oh, and Ashur Tablets, I feel there is a 'before' and 'after Ashur'-Vtes. That's just how good it is and how deep it affects the game. But it is an interesting card allowing MANY -if at times quite similar- new deck-types, even if it is too vanilla and not nearly :hosk: Harbingers-flavoured enough for my taste.

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23 Jul 2014 14:25 #63928 by ICL
Replied by ICL on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
I agree that open-ended/unbounded effects are things to be concerned with and generally avoided in design, but, actually, I'd say the correct number is 4 and not 5 for capping effects. I know that breaks the symmetry of the number of players in a game being from 1-5, but that means the cards that are based on number of players can be exceptions that makes them feel more special.

Fifth Tradition is a very good card, as it currently is. Whether very good cards are worth card slots, well, that's another story in a world where there are far too many beyond very good cards.

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23 Jul 2014 15:53 #63934 by ReverendRevolver
Some setups that happen while ousting are properly "deserved". If thucimia with khabar glory ousts with a kindred spirits bleed, its legit. You played cards to set up the extra pool gain that were only going to help with ousting on one axtion (or another oist action for glory).

Vc isnt hard to set up. You already were doing what you needed to do in order to capitalize.

Daughters can parity shift.
They play lily prelude with bribes then cap. No pool requirement. They can deal 4 damage to thier prey then gain 4 pool. With at least 3 cards not countimg vote push setup.
So lets call it 7 cards. The prelude, bribes, vc, awe, bo, a fee stake, and conductor.

You can parity shift and gain 4, then cap to gain 2 more, then minion tap your 10 cap next turn.

Its a stupid good card, but its not the same as tablets due to even presence monopoly on voting not competing with the innerworkings of girls mmpa.

We dont need mtg level resource creation. I had a Thallid casual deck that would exponentially generate saprolings. No joke, you needed a calculator doubling season, sporesower, all sorts of other thallids....

Vtes is hard enough without that crap. But we arent even close to that bad yet.

Vc is balanced, as is tablets outside of some applications.

We have to decide where the machine goes turbo with girls mmpa, since its the big problem.

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23 Jul 2014 20:56 - 23 Jul 2014 20:57 #63956 by AaronC
Replied by AaronC on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

What I am saying is that managing a finite resource (a library of cards) is a core component of the game. In as much as managing the finite resource of 30 pool is a core component of the game. VTES is also a game about making sure you're the last car to run out of petrol rather than the first car over the line. You only have to ensure you are still going when every other player is not... so resource advantages are big. This is the complaint against Giant's Blood (creating large swing in resources) and Pentex (effectively removing large amounts of resource).


This is an eloquent way to say what many players agree with.

Maybe it's because I'm inclined to be on your side, but your arguments against Ashurs have certainly seemed stronger than others' arguments in favor. Huge resource gains are questionable. Getting free access to many cards in your ash heap is questionable. The conversation veered to VC, which is also questionable.

It just sometimes feels like some people's reaction is: since it's been printed and I am familiar with it, it is balanced.
Last edit: 23 Jul 2014 20:57 by AaronC.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Juggernaut1981, TryDeflectingThisGrapple

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23 Jul 2014 21:59 #63957 by Juggernaut1981

What I am saying is that managing a finite resource (a library of cards) is a core component of the game. In as much as managing the finite resource of 30 pool is a core component of the game. VTES is also a game about making sure you're the last car to run out of petrol rather than the first car over the line. You only have to ensure you are still going when every other player is not... so resource advantages are big. This is the complaint against Giant's Blood (creating large swing in resources) and Pentex (effectively removing large amounts of resource).


This is an eloquent way to say what many players agree with.

Maybe it's because I'm inclined to be on your side, but your arguments against Ashurs have certainly seemed stronger than others' arguments in favor. Huge resource gains are questionable. Getting free access to many cards in your ash heap is questionable. The conversation veered to VC, which is also questionable.

It just sometimes feels like some people's reaction is: since it's been printed and I am familiar with it, it is balanced.


I'd love to take credit, but really it is what I've gotten from hearing Darby and ICL talk about VTES for a while. Plus other debates with Ben Peal and more recently Peter Rophail have convinced me that VTES is not necessarily about crushing all your foes like a tabletop wargame or Monopoly, but ensuring that you are the last one standing and you took others out on the way there.

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24 Jul 2014 00:50 #63958 by AaronC
Replied by AaronC on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Perhaps the debate then becomes "Should VTES be a game with huge swings in resources?" If the answer is 'No', then it's hard to argue that cards such as Ashur's Tablets aren't unbalanced. Also included in the list would be the perennial debate targets Giant's Blood and Pentex Subversion, and certainly Voter Captivation (and maybe Autarkis/Con Boon?).

Your insight (or Darby's or ICL's) creates a good framework with which to judge card design. Ian (ICL) here voiced again his perennial criticism of VTES that the presence of uber cards means that very good cards see much less play.

Maybe VTES should be a game that makes huge swings in resources really hard to pull off. "A huge swing" would also include effects that allowed you to easily get around the uncertainty of what you were going to draw next.

That premise would imply that many of the cards we've just been talking about could be or should be changed to make them less good or harder to play. It would also mean admitting that some the popular cards currently in circulation have desiign flaws.

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24 Jul 2014 13:24 #63992 by Jeff Kuta

Perhaps the debate then becomes "Should VTES be a game with huge swings in resources?" If the answer is 'No', then it's hard to argue that cards such as Ashur's Tablets aren't unbalanced.


The retort is "Should VTES be a game with powerful cards?" That answer to that must be "Yes" or else the appeal of the game would be greatly diminished.

There is only so much design space if you limit yourself to effects that provide a bonus of 1 or 2 per card. People complain all the time about the disciplines and clans "losing their identity" as they are granted effects that replicate something another discipline does. Giving Thaumaturgy some damage prevention with Rego Motus wasn't the end of the world. There are many other examples where people fretted about this or that with every expansion.

But if there are to be powerful cards, some of them must have inherent risks associated with playing them. Ashur Tablets has a very big one built in. You can be totally screwed over if you lose the race to pop them. It is balanced by it being self-limiting. The main problem with Ashur Tablets is that KoT wasn't a big enough print run (could have easily been 2x as large), and now many printed common cards are effectively super rare and expensive.

If you want to really see how balanced or imbalanced Ashur Tablets are, play them in *every* deck. I use 6 of them in 95% of my decks, and all of my decks have 66 or fewer cards. I only own 6, but we allow proxies in casual play, and Ascendance is a good proxy card for AT.

It's obvious that I think the risk of playing with Ashur Tablets is well worth the reward. But many, many other people don't. Maybe they fear MMPA decks. Maybe they play 90 card decks so the random factor is too much for them. Maybe they don't proxy. Who knows? I think most likely the cost ($50+ per Tablet now) is prohibitive, and I also think this kind of anti-Mr.Suitcase sentiment is a subtext that isn't acknowledged with respect to expensive power cards. I know I wish I could afford to buy 3x Enkil Cog for all my large-cap decks.

Back to huge swings...
IMO the effect you get for 3 successful Master phase actions (no Sudden Reversal or Washes) and no "contesting" of Ashur Tablets is not a huge swing. As a thought experiment, consider this hypothetical card:

Tablet
Master.
Remove this card from the game as it is played. Gain 1 pool and move up to X cards from your ash heap to your library. Shuffle afterward.

What is the appropriate value of "X"?

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
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