Errata Kalis Fang??

self wrote:

most of my ideas tend to get shot down in a chorus of "the game is just fine as it is!" or "we can't change anything, that will confuse new players!"

You want to streamline the game, but you object to people saying that things will confuse new players? The two are very, very strongly linked. The fact that V:TES has a truck of a rulebook with a multitude of mechanical cul-de-sacs in it is a huge disincentive for new players. Adding yet another special case for guns or melee weapons or whatever is another element to that.

Additional to that, all changes have a cost in terms of impact on existing players and impact on returning players. At the extreme end, few people really want to ban cards just for the hell of it(*) because it disrupts things for existing players, potentially killing the favourite decks of various players - but it's sometimes necessary for the greater good. Neutering gun decks outright could have a similar effect. Similarly, for returning players, making significant disruptive changes raises the barrier for return - knowing that (at random) the scarce Bloodlines have been made a bit better, that Quietus can cope with S:CE, that Anarchs are great defensively etc. is a lot less to learn (and the sort of change endemic to all CCGs) than finding that fundamental mechanics have been rewritten all over the place.

This is not "Everything is fine." But change has cost. Improving the environment for particular mechanics by creating new cards can be potentially disruptive to the environment without adding a truck of new rules for people to learn. Any player - new, returning, or forgetful - can pick up the card, read it, and understand, and not have to remember yet more cardless rules.

Cardless rules are particularly annoying when they trigger off a little-used keyword and your opponent has to understand the difference. Knowing that a card is a "gun" is mostly irrelevant for game purposes, except for the person playing it - who can choose to use ammo cards that require a gun, or can use Suppressing Fire that requires a gun etc. Me having to know that gun has some weird corner case meanings regarding how much damage it can do in which circumstances is annoying as hell for many players.



(*) There have been a few players who've suggested banning a clutch of cards as, essentially, a form of set rotation. These 20 cards (probably popular cards) have been banned, rebuild your decks.

self wrote:

However, with the game in a torpid state, I don't see how discussing ways to streamline some of the more unwieldy bits and doing some work on not only the engine of the game,

Suggesting that guns can't use additional strikes or that guns gain one extra damage per additional strike (rather than their full strike) is the exact opposite of streamlining - it's adding another rule.



On a more general note: (most) melee weapons are bad. But several other combat strategies are fairly competitive with each other, such as Potence with Immortal Grapple vs Guns. Melee weapons largely aren't played because they're not as good. If you nerf guns via some new rule, you won't have done a single thing to make melee weapons more useful against Carrion Crows, weenie Fortitude, or whatever else. So there's a strong chance you'll make the game's rules appear more complicated while having the practical effect of simply eliminating gun decks from the game.

re: guns I am in no way suggesting that a rule be placed in the rulebook saying something to the effect of Guns can't use additional strikes. i probably wasn't clear as to how I would do it, but i'd change, say, Assault rifle to read: "Strike: 4R once each round. Strike: 1R each strike. Optional Maneuver." or something far more elegant when it comes to formatting and templating, and apply that Errata to ALL GUNS. I wholly concede that mass errata also isn't the greatest thing in the world, either.

I also think that Cold Iron Vulnerability should go away. have Poker... and those three other cards that are Cold Iron be Errata'd to say they do Aggravated damage to Kyasid vampires, and just delete the relevant text from draeven softfoot.

I have more to add, but we're going pretty far off topic here. I'll make another thread over the weekend and discuss things further.

self wrote:

I also think that Cold Iron Vulnerability should go away. have Poker... and those three other cards that are Cold Iron be Errata'd to say they do Aggravated damage to Kyasid vampires, and just delete the relevant text from draeven softfoot.

Cold Iron Vulnerability is indeed not really a disadvantage at all.

Then again, IF we ever get the game rolling again AND happen to get the Print on Demand IT WOULD be possible to change majority of Melee Weapons, such as Bastard Sword etc, to having the Cold iron keyword. IF the rule team deemed it necessary.

Heck, no one uses such melee weapons (well, the !Salubri do butusually Walking Sticks are what they seem to use) so it wouldn't really change anything.


Not holding my breath...

Can't we delete blood curse while we are at it ? It's not even fluffy like cold iron.

I own 16 assamite decks.

I use snipers, .44 magnuns, kerries, argent batons, nightsticks, blades of enoch, joulom's axes, sengir daggers, baseball bats, daggers, weighted walking stick, crimson sentinel, ivory bow, rowan ring, flamethrowers, and the wailing banshee.

None of them uses kali's fang.
3 pool is crap. This card is a damn wallpaper.

1 pool would be good (1 less than sengirs), 2 pool would make it at least playable.

If we want some necro, than we still have unresolved issue of first strike beating SCE.

At the time of thouse epic thread I was thinking that it will have zero effect on competitive play so was kind of not interested.

But now we got bunch of new players who are annoed with confusing timing of strikes and cool first strike combat cards, which are really wallpaper.

So in this point of view it'll be meaningfull change.

Why not make a few more melee weapons hand strikes. Like the melee weapon "Bundi" ("This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike).

If they want to limit the number to a few melee weapons, I can't see why brass knuckles & Bang Nakh" shouldn't be useable as a hand strike, if you're grappled or the doing the grappling. Fair enough melee like Chainsaws shouldn't be useable when being hugged(grappled).

Personally I would like to put a Bastard Sword deck together, however I'd be foolish when I see Meat Hook cost nothing (vs 1 pool cost of B/Sword) AND has a possible built in press. Yes it can be destroyed by a vamp with potence (but who cares it cost nothing).

As it is I rarely see melee weapons played, or play them myself.
If you want weapons on your minions why would you use melee, when you can use guns for example and go to the safety of long range? Also do damage, and reduce the risk of hand strikes, Immortal grapples, nasty close range damage and melee strikes so on and so on.

Melee weapons don't kill vampires, guns do!

/Rant off

Yeah, melee weapons tend to get the, erm, short end of the stick