file Card Replacement

28 Apr 2015 10:50 - 28 Apr 2015 10:53 #70748 by Pascal Bertrand

Also, assuming the card worked the way you suggest (which it might), say I have 6 cards (+Gift+ in hand when I play Gift. Can I say "7", hoping to redraw another Protean card (or even knowing that I will, if I've meddled with my library somehow), and then put all seven on during resolution? More generally. can I say a number higher than the number I currently have, because I know I'm going to discard/change cards in the action somehow?

No, as the declaration of that term would be incorrect when it would be made.
Last edit: 28 Apr 2015 10:53 by Pascal Bertrand.

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28 Apr 2015 10:53 #70749 by Pascal Bertrand

Let's say I have 1 Gift of Proteus in hand, 3 Flesh of Marble and 3 Form of Mist. I play Gift of Proteus and announce 5 cards. The action is blocked. During combat, I play Flesh of Marble and Form of Mist to continue the action. The action is not blocked. Which cards can I put on Gift of Proteus?

Any set of up-to-5 cards that require Protean (but you cannot move less than 5 if you have 5).

Same question with 6 cards.

Any set of up-to-6 cards that require Protean (but you cannot move less than 6 if you have 6).

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28 Apr 2015 13:06 #70751 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Card Replacement

Could do, but dangerous (as it makes a distinction between two sets of cards of your hand) and unnecessary. When in doubt, call a judge who can confirm the requirement (for Concealed Weapon, Shattering Crescendo, Blessing of the Beast, ...) is met.


- The declaration of the Gift of Proteus / Blessing of the Beast contains a number (named "any" in the cardtexts). So you'd say, for exampl,e "Mimir plays superior Gift of Proteus and I'll be moving 4 cards". At that point, Gift of Proteus is no longer in your hand, and you need (at least) 4 cards requiring Protean in your hand.


Does it mean that if I play Concealed Weapon and I have a Sniper Rifle in hand, and that when I play Concealed Weapon I draw a .44 Magnum I can change my mind and choose the .44 Magnum?

Concealed Weapon:
This minion equips with a non-unique weapon card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). The weapon cannot cost 3 or more pool or inflict {with a regular strike} aggravated damage or 4 or more damage.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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28 Apr 2015 15:59 - 28 Apr 2015 16:10 #70757 by Lead
Replied by Lead on topic Re: Card Replacement
Hi Bertrand,
Thanks so much for weighing in on this thread.

If that is a ruling, I would petition you to reverse it. Here's my case:

1) Moving "any number of cards" is part of the resolution of the action (or MPA) and not part of the declaration of the action (or MPA).

2) The word "any" is not the same as the variable X. If the card were meant to work as you have ruled, the best way to write the card using the games available formats would be: "Pick X. Put his card on this Gangrel with X cards requiring Protean...[etc]" Then it would work exactly as you ruled. I would say that "any" in English works in quite a different way from "X," it has both a connotation and denotation of not caring how many.
e.g.
Question: Which cards should I put face down?
Answer: "Any number of cards."
Meaning: It doesn't matter which or how many cards. It could even be 0 or 11.

I would represent that this is the simplest and most accurate interpretation of the cards:

Gift of Proteus
+1 stealth action.
Put this card on this Gangrel with any number of cards requiring Protean [pro] from your hand face down (you can look at the cards at any time).


I declare Gift of Proteus with this vampire. Blocks? No blocks? Okay, I put Gift of Proteus on this Gangrel and I move any number of cards to it.


Blessing of the Beast
Master.
Put this card on an Ahrimane with any number of cards that require Spiritus [spi] from your hand (face down).


I am playing Blessing of the Beast on this Ahrimane. Sudden reversals? Wash? Burning blood to cancel it? Okay, I am putting this card on the Ahrimane and moving any number of cards to it.


Incidentally, I think this aligns with one of the implicit game design principles about information. Declaring before resolution that you have X number of cards in your hand that meet a certain requirement (require Protean or Spiritus) would be a rare and high-cost thing to do. The cards would only do that with explicit text that says to do it that way. Playing Concealed Weapon reveals only the one weapon card, and options to cancel it are few (and post-date the creation of the card).


Thanks so much for considering my review request!
Last edit: 28 Apr 2015 16:10 by Lead.

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28 Apr 2015 16:02 - 28 Apr 2015 16:03 #70758 by Lead
Replied by Lead on topic Re: Card Replacement
Even stronger argument "Put this card" is part of the resolution of the card, therefore anything happening after that is part of the resolution of the card. If something needed to be declared to resolve further effects, it would either say so before saying "Put this card [on the vampire]" or it woulds explicitly say that it needed to be declared in the card text.
Last edit: 28 Apr 2015 16:03 by Lead.

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28 Apr 2015 16:05 #70759 by Lead
Replied by Lead on topic Re: Card Replacement
Definition of "any" :

an·y
ˈenē/Submit
determiner & pronoun
1.
used to refer to one or some of a thing or number of things, no matter how much or many.
"I don't have any choice"
2.
whichever of a specified class might be chosen.
"these constellations are visible at any hour of the night"
adverb
adverb: any
1.
(used for emphasis) at all; in some degree.
"he wasn't any good at basketball"
synonyms: at all, in the least, to any extent, in/to any degree
"is your father any better?"

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28 Apr 2015 16:49 - 28 Apr 2015 16:49 #70760 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: Card Replacement

1) Moving "any number of cards" is part of the resolution of the action (or MPA) and not part of the declaration of the action (or MPA).


But... Entering combat with a minion (Bum's Rush, Ambush) is part of the resolution, so that's not part of the declaration, either? Woohoo!

2) The word "any" is not the same as the variable X. If the card were meant to work as you have ruled, the best way to write the card using the games available formats would be: "Pick X. Put his card on this Gangrel with X cards requiring Protean...[etc]"


Picking the number when you play the card isn't something that Pascal has ruled on - that came from LSJ.

Then it would work exactly as you ruled. I would say that "any" in English works in quite a different way from "X," it has both a connotation and denotation of not caring how many.
e.g.
Question: Which cards should I put face down?
Answer: "Any number of cards."
Meaning: It doesn't matter which or how many cards. It could even be 0 or 11.


See Minion Tap: "Move any amount of blood from one of the vampires you control to your pool."

You have to specify how much blood you're moving when you play the card (before anyone can cancel it), not after. Similarly, Gird Minions.

I would represent that this is the simplest and most accurate interpretation of the cards:


I'm not sure how being inconsistent with previous rulings is "simplest and most accurate".


Incidentally, I think this aligns with one of the implicit game design principles about information. Declaring before resolution that you have X number of cards in your hand that meet a certain requirement (require Protean or Spiritus) would be a rare and high-cost thing to do.


You're starting from your own vision as to how this should work, and working your justification backwards from there.

There's nothing in the game that says this is "rare" or "high cost". Shock Troops will reveal that you have X cards in your hand. Free Fight will require you to announce how many Blood Brothers you're going to tap.

The cards would only do that with explicit text that says to do it that way.


That's one way V:TES could work, but this isn't something that's based in how V:TES works at the moment - and runs counter to a number of existing cards.
Last edit: 28 Apr 2015 16:49 by jamesatzephyr.

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