On Villein. 1. "problematic card"

Amenophobis wrote:

Brum wrote:

A), although it implies that it's ok to change other cards and I don't believe in that either.
So... G) Change nothing. The game is balanced with the current set of legal card texts.

Having witnessed a lot of timeout at the EC, mostly due to Villeins, I strongly contest that.

I wasn't in Poland. But for what people tell me there were many other factors to take into consideration:
* Lots of vote decks canceling each other.
* Wall decks that stop people from doing anything and don't oust very effectively.
* Combat decks that really don't oust, just crush minions.
* Lots of toolbox decks that aren't very effective, but make people help them so Predator doesn't sweep.
* Many players complaining about a huge amount of table talk.

All the big tournaments I've participated have been after Villein was released, so I haven't seen the Before.
What I've seen is that Villein is not a direct cause for time outs. Other players choices in decks, play styles and attitudes, yes.

Joscha wrote:

Hakuron wrote:

Amenophobis wrote:

IMO points c) and d).
I strongly believe that the hosing should be reduced somewhat, and it should only give 6 pool max.

c) should be seen in relation with f) ... If changing the card text, I highly recommend not (only) to say "up to 5", but (in addition) to say "at least 2 blood must remain on the vampire" ... Else midcamp vampire would benefit most from the change, and you exchanged only the problematic capacity ...

I'm not sure how to add this option without making this poll most complicated. There are people saying yes to that suggestion but like to get rid of MT-hosing, want to keep the hosing, want to get rid of trifle and so on... Would it be okay if I'd just give your suggestion an extraoption without the hosing-point?

I agree with that it would get complicated ... just "drop" the note somewhere in the poll, so that it will not get "lost" ...

Brum wrote:

Amenophobis wrote:

Having witnessed a lot of timeout at the EC, mostly due to Villeins, I strongly contest that.

I wasn't in Poland.

I was.

Brum wrote:

But for what people tell me there were many other factors to take into consideration:
* Lots of vote decks canceling each other.

A direct consequence of more high cap vampires. They tend to come with more votes out of the box.

Brum wrote:

* Wall decks that stop people from doing anything and don't oust very effectively.

I have seen some wall decks, all of them had good methods of ousting.

Brum wrote:

* Combat decks that really don't oust, just crush minions.

Can't say, saw none of those that don't oust.

Brum wrote:

* Lots of toolbox decks that aren't very effective, but make people help them so Predator doesn't sweep.

Lots? I saw none.

Brum wrote:

* Many players complaining about a huge amount of table talk.

That had to be me then.

Brum wrote:

What I've seen is that Villein is not a direct cause for time outs. Other players choices in decks, play styles and attitudes, yes.

What I have seen in my 9 games at the EC is that there were large numbers of Villeins played. Often, this resulted in thwarting an impending oust. Which in turn prolonged the games. VPs were extremely hard to get.

Izaak wrote:

2) Undo the idiotic ruling that makes you able to play Villein for less than 2.

CONTRA

This.

My issue is not that one player can pull off a free vampire once via Giant's Blood but that it is ruled to function differently than how it is written. The ability to cycle it easily on zero blood vampires reduces the opportunity cost of stacking it in your deck.

I watched three finals in Warsaw and Villein didn't help any of them time out. Talking and trying to get impossible deals to survive did.

When I am at it - PRO. Ban Giant's Blood and make Lilith's Blessing unique instead.

Villein: I would go with "at least 2 blood must remain on the vampire" (as Hakuron said earlier). Providing a restriction to only let you drain a max of 5 blood or at least 5 blood doesn't feel necessary as it would kill Villein's abaility to make Big Caps playable again.
Regarding Giant's Blood: it's onyl once and including multiple copies hence doesn't help that much (your deck gets clogged on excess Giant's Bloods). Voter Cap is actually a lot crazier IMO because it could be played multiple times in a single turn, gaining both blood AND pool time and time again. Even dedicated actions to make a vampire gain blood such as Restoration/Fifth Trad/Abactor/Sheepdog on average only gain you 3-5 blood (exception: the 'scarce' Renewed Vigour), whereas Voter Cap might fill them up all the way, providing of course you have the votes (Gustav B., anyone?), and all this in addition to the actual vote! In the end Voter Cap seems a bigger problem to me than Villein (and of course their resp. problems are strongly connected). Setting a max. of 5 blood to be gained from Voter Cap could help solve multiple problems at once IMO.