three "problem cards"

I must concede that Girls/MMPA decks are too goo right now, and while I don't personally think many cards need banned, i cooked up a few ideas on how to fix these "problem cards". admittedly, i could have poseted this in the discussion over LB and Anthelios, but its more about proposed fixes to 3 cards, not just the two.

Ashur Tablets:
i feel the tablets, while not NECCISARY for the games existance, does provide really fluid decks with a way to re-use combat cards, actions, etc, along with let players cheat and build smaller decks with lots of burn option cards. i'm willing to let the latter slide if the former can continue, and some players may disagree, but few who see the card as good and don't want it banned will disagree about this: master cards shouldn't be its purview. so here are my proposed ideas:




Master.
Put this card in play. If you have three copies in play, remove all copies in play (even controlled by other Methuselahs) from the game to gain 3 pool and choose up to thirteen minion cards from your ash heap. Move up to one of those cards to your hand and shuffle the others into your library.






Master.
Put this card in play. If you have three copies in play, remove all copies in play (even controlled by other Methuselahs) from the game to gain 3 pool and choose up to thirteen minion cards from your ash heap. Shuffle those cards into your library, and you may draw a card (discard down to hand size afterword).




same as second, with added once per game on recurrance.

anthelios:




Gehenna.
Once each turn, a Methuselah can use a master phase action to exchange a master card in his or her hand for one in his or her ash heap. If he or she does, they cannot play anymore master cards this turn. This ability cannot be used unless a Gehenna card has been played since Anthelios’ controllers last discard phase.
At the end of the discard phase of the Methuselah who played this card, tap this card if no Gehenna cars have been played since this methuselah’s previous untap phase, and place a waning counter on Anthelios. Anthelios does not untap until another




less wordy/limited than first one.

liliths blessing:




Master
Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card and 2 blood and becomes Bahari.(The vampire must gain the discipline card in order to gain the blood and become Bahari. If no Discipline card is placed on the vampire, this card is still tapped.)




Master
Put this card in play. During your untap phase, you may use a master phase action to tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card and 3 blood and becomes Bahari.(The vampire must gain the discipline card in order to gain the blood and become Bahari. If no Discipline card is placed on the vampire, this card is still tapped.)

Master Unique.
Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card and 2 blood and becomes Bahari.(The vampire must gain the discipline card in order to gain the blood and become Bahari. If no Discipline card is placed on the vampire, this card is still tapped.)
While this card is in play, any ready non-bahari, non-infernal minion may enter combat with any ready Bahari minion as a D action.

and there it is, all cards were edited to reflect changes limiting abuse while preserving the basics of their function and keeping them between "solid" and "playable"(side note: liquidation was on the chopping block to have some or all of the cards removed from game, chosen by other players, and still may need edited, but it basically just sucks terribly without a girls deck behind it, so i'm unsure on its power.)

thoughts?

Nice ideas.

I'm a fan of the wording of first Lilith's Blessing, but I would like to remove the clause spesifying you'll need to find the master card; the card text with correct order of wording should take care of that.

The first Ashur Tablets seems fine, mainly because the change in wording to the original is minimal, with still a significant change.

Another idea to fix Anthelios with minimal change in text: Maybe make it work with a Discard phase action instead? You'll limit it's usefulness to 3+ MPA decks, and suddening their key master is still valid. As it is, it's really not. Otherwise I find your changes are too cumbersome.

I believe it to be overcompensating to ban or change both Ashur Tablets and Anthelios. If Anthelios would be banned (or nerfed into uselessness, as suggested) Ashur Tablets would be a lot weaker than it now is.

For one, Liquidation would be dangerous to play if you accidentally liquidate a few too many Ashur Tablets, your entire recursion engine might die with 5 ashur tablets in the ash heap. Secondly, Sudden Reversal and Wash would increase in power against MMPA decks since they can't retrieve Ashur Tablets which has been suddened. This also kills your recursion engine. As it is now, Sudden and Wash are really bad against MMPA decks until someone manages to uncoil your Anthelios. Removing Anthelios would make Ashur Tablets recursion a house of cards (no pun intended) which could be toppled unless carefully managed.

When trying to rebalance the game I think caution is advisable, and obviously MMPA decks would be weaker without Anthelios. To give them an extra nerf other than removing (or as good as removing) Anthelios could very well be negative in the long run.

The obvious follow-up question would be: Why Anthelios and not Ashur Tablets if not both? Well, I personally think Ashur Tablets are a challenging and tricky deck building concept. It adds a lot of depth to the game. Anthelios main contribution to the game is making it easier to play, and more forgiving to make mistakes when playing, some certain decks.

Xaddam wrote:

I believe it to be overcompensating to ban or change both Ashur Tablets and Anthelios. If Anthelios would be banned (or nerfed into uselessness, as suggested) Ashur Tablets would be a lot weaker than it now is.

For one, Liquidation would be dangerous to play if you accidentally liquidate a few too many Ashur Tablets, your entire recursion engine might die with 5 ashur tablets in the ash heap. Secondly, Sudden Reversal and Wash would increase in power against MMPA decks since they can't retrieve Ashur Tablets which has been suddened. This also kills your recursion engine. As it is now, Sudden and Wash are really bad against MMPA decks until someone manages to uncoil your Anthelios. Removing Anthelios would make Ashur Tablets recursion a house of cards (no pun intended) which could be toppled unless carefully managed.

When trying to rebalance the game I think caution is advisable, and obviously MMPA decks would be weaker without Anthelios. To give them an extra nerf other than removing (or as good as removing) Anthelios could very well be negative in the long run.

The obvious follow-up question would be: Why Anthelios and not Ashur Tablets if not both? Well, I personally think Ashur Tablets are a challenging and tricky deck building concept. It adds a lot of depth to the game. Anthelios main contribution to the game is making it easier to play, and more forgiving to make mistakes when playing, some certain decks.

because, imho, mmpa recursion/bloat solitaire needs to die a horrible agonizing death, but that is just me. Though i think i am not alone in this sentiment.

That said, i do feel a nerf to anthelies is way too strong in the proposed version, making it unplayable. I still think easiest solution would be to make it a transient that burns during your next discard phase. Less text changes that way.

i believe smallest fixes are most effective ones, that can be made by simply inputing a word or a sentence (like villein is changed).

so
- Ashur - retrieves MINION cards only
Liliths - skill card is obligatory

Pendargon wrote:

so
- Ashur - retrieves MINION cards only
Liliths - skill card is obligatory

Both seem reasonable, even if I still believe that Ashur should just be banned.

A possible nerf for Anthelios would be to add :

"While Anthelios is in play, remove master card from the game instead of putting them in the ash heap".

You would need to play it once your ash heap is already full enough, and it could be played early to screw over people that have not finished their setup. Which is kind of fitting lore-wise : the gehenne came too fast and mess with your plans.

(sorry, but the cards of the original post are barely readable and since the change are not readily shown it's hard to understand what's going on)