file French National Championship - About Reversale of Fortune and Madness Network

22 Sep 2013 10:20 - 25 Sep 2013 04:29 #54245 by Ankha
Round 2.

I sit at the table, my grand-predator plays a Reversal of Fortune deck, his predator a deck without intercept or vote, and his prey plays intercept combat (Neighbour John, Gostdam the Tired Warrior).

Despite
  1. his first Madness Network washed
  2. vote cards discarded on each of his votes (including his Malkavian Justicar, but since he had 2 votes on that vote, it was useless)
  3. my Justicar hastily influenced with an Information Highway before he gets another prince (the vote balance is 3-3 at that point, but his prey agreeing to play with him, he always get the vote of the edge in favor)
  4. his praxis vote delayed
  5. his prey that could block him but accepts the proposition of getting the GW3

The Reversal of Fortune deck has played with his prey for 45 minutes, the other players being forced to sit down and watch, having no turn to play.
So basically, one hour after the start of the game, his little-prey (myself) was ousted, and the vampires of the other players in torpor or burned, thanks to Watenda with a Flamethrower and an Alastor.

I confess the deck is very tricky to play and funny at some point but being able to fully negate the other players turns is a bad thing for the game.
Furthermore, the deck has only two options:
- either his predator or prey cannot block him, and he wins the game without allowing other players except 1 to play
- either he lose-deals on turn 2 with the player that can block him, creating a king-making situation, while preventing the 3 other players from playing anyway.

Place-changing votes were disrupting enough, that one is even worse.

I petition so that Reversal of Fortune is either
- restricted to 1 or 2 per game
- banned.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 25 Sep 2013 04:29 by Ankha.
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22 Sep 2013 12:08 - 22 Sep 2013 13:08 #54248 by Boris The Blade
From what you describe, it sounds less problematic than Una or a Turbo deck: at least one other player gets to play, and the combo is easier to disrupt.

What was the Reversal's predator playing for him to prefer a losing deal with his prey?
Last edit: 22 Sep 2013 13:08 by Boris The Blade.

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22 Sep 2013 12:59 - 22 Sep 2013 13:14 #54253 by ICL
Is there any particular reason to blame Reversal of Fortunes rather than blaming being able to act on other people's turns?

People may think it's cool or fun to be able to act on other players' turns, but that's a much greater breaking of the normal rules and has far more abuses.

On the other hand, if everybody does the same things all of the time, not really taking advantage of the possibilities games like this provide. Is this more gamebreaking than other combo decks? Maybe but not obviously so. Note that I'm not talking about how good it is when speaking of gamebreaking but how pointless it makes games.
Last edit: 22 Sep 2013 13:14 by ICL.

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22 Sep 2013 13:01 #54254 by jamesatzephyr

I petition so that Reversal of Fortune is either
- restricted to 1 or 2 per game
- banned.


If[0] action were to be needed, how about:

"You cannot play Reversal of Fortunes as an out-of-turn action."

(Or some text functionally equivalent to that, such as "You may play Reversal of Fortunes only during your own turn.")



[0] This is the important word in this sentence

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22 Sep 2013 14:03 - 22 Sep 2013 14:07 #54259 by Ankha

From what you describe, it sounds less problematic than Una or a Turbo deck: at least one other player gets to play, and the combo is easier to disrupt.

Turbo deck often rely on one big-star vampire, meaning that people have more time to play before waiting for the turbo to end his turn, and it's easier to block one vampire than many.
But the comparison with turbo decks is not good anyway, as every player has a chance to play, whereas in our case, 3 players don't even get a third turn (or second turn if the Madness Reversal deck is lucky).

What was the Reversal's predator playing for him to prefer a losing deal with his prey?

A FoS Spell of Life deck. He washed two Madness Network (unfortunately the second time another one was immediately replaced and played), so he did his job.

Is there any particular reason to blame Reversal of Fortunes rather than blaming being able to act on other people's turns?

It's the combinaison that is to blame. Removing the ability to play during other's players turns means that Enkil Cog should also be banned or somehow modified. I'm not against it as it would solve the problem, but it's easier to ban or restrict Reversal of Fortune (for the sake of those tier-3 Barrenness-Scourge decks).

Is this more gamebreaking than other combo decks? Maybe but not obviously so.

Definitively yes as it forces king-making in some configurations, and denies the ability to play of 3 persons on the table.
Being removed from the whole game on turn 2 is one of the definitions of "game-breaking".

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 22 Sep 2013 14:07 by Ankha.

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22 Sep 2013 17:15 #54271 by ReverendRevolver
I dont disagree that reversal madness is viable or annoying, but several combos are as bad.

Madness network is one of, if not the only, interesting things about malkavians. Cog reshaped the metas, but id say legacy of pander is more abusable than network. Network is balanced. It only alloes untapped malks to act, so no forcexof will nonsense with Nergal clan impersonating with a concordance can happen.

Reversal is weqk in all other decks. This deck makes it a time walk. This deck is disruptable. Seating wrecked this game. Gotsdam doesnt care about watenda flamethrower, and cant be rotsxhrecked. Eagles sight and neighbor john, di2, sudden, dts, and more common stuff coulda put the breaks on this deck.

Tupdogs are hard to beat. Or so ive heard. My first casual game against them i made the player wish hed played weenie presence instead, because no secrets akunanse crushed it.

Una and girls are stupid good. And way harder to beat than this.

Id consider time walk madness like current imbued: not played much, hated when it is, and the table should kill it.id cross table contest madness network if i saw this at my table.

But i dont think it needs banned.
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