Balancing Ashur Tablets

Timo wrote:

cordovader wrote:

You have to consider that it would also break several decks using Ashur Tablets and that aren't abusing of the combo, for example my last TWD:
www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=16435

Ashur Tablets, no Liquidation and need to take the precise cards. If not I guess it won't work at all as expected. Played by myself and other players in different games/tournaments and I can guarantee it's solid, but not broken at all (and it's a MMPA-deck).

I'm not so sure.

If I read your deck list, you have :

30 masters :
22 will stay in play (or be removed from the game)
5 are "transient" : dream's, fame, pentex, tension, wider view (yes, I consider you play fame on your prey and you oust him/her)
3 will go in the ash heap when played

5 other permanents (2 event, well marked and 2 raven spy)

and then you have 5 reactions and 35 combat cards

and with ashur, what you wan back in your deck ?

I guess combat, reaction and transient masters

Of course you will not be able to tune your proportion so finely than before but you will still choose 1 card to put in your hand.

Mainly I take back combat and reactions, yes, adapting the proportions depending on metagame. I don't really adapt much, I usually take 2x Carrion + 2x Torn Signpost + 2x Immortal Grapple + 2x Taste of Vitae and refill with some maneuvers + Drawing out the Beast and/or reactions.

During French Nationals (I played the deck) I took only reactions and ToV back when I was facing 1v1 Orian with his Eldest are Kholo Ravnos swarm deck. It finished with time limit, with me with no cards on library and 1 card in hand and him with no blood on his vamps except 1.

Transient masters are usually taken back with Anthelios and or Ashur Tablets if needed.

My point is : it doesn' breack your deck, you just have to adapt your way to build it and play it but not much).

In combat deck, I think, the decks which will be most (negatively) impacted would be CEL gun. Because you will refill your deck with conceal weapons without anymore .44 (which sucks a lot).

Another great impact this errata will have is the power level of rochomancy against ashur decks.

For now, trochomancy is great, with this, it will be devastating meaning the ashur user will not be able to choose between the remaining good cards and will have to either chose randomly 1 card (and will be able to discard it immediately if it is crap) or risk to reshuffle a lot of crap for "some" good cards ^^

alek wrote:

- remove giving pool

there are already too many options how to gain pool. concerning loquidation+ashur combo for pool gain is not fastest as well not most effective combo. Mition tap/villein + Voter cap is little bit more conditional but most of the time more effective. and it does cost less cards to play.
pool gain was never the real problem of ashurs. when you play 3 times ascendance you got same effect. recuring cards bonus is the break point inwhole proces

alek wrote:

- remove option of taking one of the cards to your hand

and this should help your prey not getting pentex while there is no anthelios on the table, right? there are only few cards you will consider to put into your hand and 80% of them are master cards you intent to use in next MPA afere resolving tablets.
combination of these cards in you ashep and ashurs dig to hand seems to be powerfull, but you can count cards that you would consider for this on one hand - pentex, golconda, villein, liquidation and something depending on your deck.
and on the other hand when there is a Anson deck behind you with pentex in asheap and anthelios on the table you would expect to get that pentex again, right? so why does it surprise you when same effect happens after ashurs are triggered?

alek wrote:

- make it possible to play only one ashur per turn

- this one might be in fact interesting. unfortunately it automatically created premise first play first use. i'm afraid that in final result this will just aggravate problem when two players with ashurs do meet from current 'we are upset for seating' to new state 'we are screwed by seating'.

alek wrote:

- make it possible to take back only minion cards

i have never tested this one so it's hard to evaluate just by reading. it's truth that usualy i do return more than minion cards and few times we all saw nana to dig out dragonbound for prey oust...

alek wrote:

- reduce number of cards that can be put back into the deck f.e. to the 7 cards

- 7 cards might too few for 3 MPAs. this way you will in fact get only 4 cards for you library as you already removed 3 of them to magicaly swap them for 3 returned cards.

alek wrote:

- ban anthelios

- don;t believe so. there are too many deck runnign it and by default it's nto bad card it just get's too powerfull once you have 2 MPAs and petnex in asheap. see anson example above

EDIT: corercted few typos

Ankha wrote:

ReverendRevolver wrote:

[Liquididation] is an Ashur enabler, but Ashurs are more broken, for sure. The same logic proving its only broken with ashurs prove its only broken with ashurs.

So, Ashurs recurring masters is a problem.

May I borrow your reasoning by replacing "Ashur Tablets" by "MMPA decks" and "Liquidation" by "Ashur Tablets"?

"Ashur Tablets are MMPA decks enabler, but MMPA decks are more broken, for sure. The same logic proving they're only broken with MMPA decks prove they're only broken with MMPA decks.
So, MMPA deck recurring masters is a problem."

I didn't grap all your concepts, but the root of the problem is MMPA decks, not Ashur.

You are realistically not wrong. Ive said before mmpa decks, specifically from the Girls family of WTF nonsense, are stupidly efficient, and thats the problem period. The part you rearranged was me saying that liquidation is seldom used wihout ashers, so banning liquidation isnt a sound decision.

Girls are more a problem than Anson even, so maybe its so many mpas tjat breaks. Errataing mpa generaters may work. Add (you may get an extra mpa from only one non trifle source each turn)

?

Pascal wrote:

Orpheus wrote:

Thank you for that answer Pascal.

Here's hoping, then, that there will be reprints, and that when there are you will consider errating a bit this card to make it less "necessary".

What do you think of the proposition above?

The one by Ankha ? Well it certainly reduces the later recycling part : you don't get one in had right away and for the rest it random, so I guess that combat decks would maybe benefit more than Girlz, who probably need to be more chosy.

I think I like that.

Pascal wrote:

Orpheus wrote:

Thank you for that answer Pascal.

Here's hoping, then, that there will be reprints, and that when there are you will consider errating a bit this card to make it less "necessary".

What do you think of the proposition above?

I think it´s a good solution.But then again I ask you Pascal: wich problem exactly we're trying to fix? what's wrong, especifically, with AT?

IMHO, ashur empowers MMPA decks, an archetype usually abused that do not need help, so it should be tuned down. Therefore the mentioned solution works just fine for me: it hurts MMPA decks just enough and still enable combat-heavy fast cycling decks.