Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

First of all, I'm in general against any ban, because I think the VEKN is not qualified to decide for cards released by other entities. IMO, the VEKN has the legitimacy to adress existing problems by the release of new sets, but I never agreed with the fact of banning or errating cards they are not the producers (unless all legal problems are solved). I was firmly against the ban even of Lilith's Blessing, although it gave a clear advantage to some archetypes.

Despite this disagreement, I fully support the VEKN in their committment to the support of the game, but I must say that I'm really disappointed. A new release should be something cool, but it seems more like drama than something exciting... Since I read the news I don't feel like playing anymore. I haven't even taken a look at the cards, I don't feel interested.

ANTHELIOS

I'm sorry to disagree, but I will expose my point of view (as someone that has played at least 15 different decks with Ashur/Anthelios/Parthenon I think I know the subject pretty well):

Of course Anthelios is necessary for a type of deck: MMPA decks. And not only this kind of decks. Other archetypes need this card to trigger some useful mechanics: Khazar, TGB AAA, Brujah Debate etc.

MMPA decks are not really an archetype itself, at least initially, but they have found a place in the actual metagame (cloning other existing archetypes in their own way). Thinking that the fact of playing Ashur, Anthelios and MMPAs makes you simply win the game or a HUGE advantage, just reflects that you haven't played this type of decks enough.

MMPA decks have it's pro's and con's.

Pro's:

-You're flexible to lots of situations (depending on the silver bullets you choose for the type of deck you're playing).
-You have decent pool game (other archetypes have even bigger pool gain).
-The overall crypt choice gives you a nice spread and cool possibilities (I won't list the possibilities, but only with Anson you can play vote, bleed, rush and intercept, quite cool).
-The deck is slimmer, so easily to predict if you like statistics.
-[SUBJECTIVE] It's HUUGE fun to play, because all the possibilities.

Con's:

-You contest a lot of times Parthenon (you NEED it).
-If another player plays Anthelios and is ousted, it turns more difficult to play your game normally (you NEED it).
-If you get your star MMPA vampire contested, you will probably lose the game.
-Your deck is slow, if you get big presure you're probably managing to do only 0,5 VPs.
-If you get a lot of masters at the wrong time, you can do nothing.
-Ashur Tablet race (in metagames where people play Ashur Tablets, it's an important factor).

If the ban was really a matter of the card's power, why not ban other cards like Deflection or Govern the Unaligned? They are far more popular, and more present in the TWDA.

I just did some research, to take some numbers out, with the number of TWDs by card:

Anthelios 336
Govern the Unaligned 800
Deflection 1089
Uncoiling 117
Fourth Cycle 31
Not to Be 26
Freak Drive 478

Govern + Lost in Crowds 130

This said, it doesn't seem to me that Anthelios si so overrepresented, given that a lot of decks make good use of it (and most of them can get Parthenon contested):

Nephandus
Khazar
Shamblings
Black Hand
TGB AAA
Council of Doom
Girls S/B
Girls ANI
Girls ANI/POT
Anson Gunz
Anson Grooming
Imbued
Madness Reversal
Destructo
Brujah Debate
Nana ANI tablets
Cybele Maleficia
Piper War Ghoul
LoP
!Toreador swarm

As you see the spread is pretty wide. You just have screwed a lot of nice archetypes for no real reason... And anyway, there are hoser-cards that do the job of removing Anthelios (Not to Be, Uncoiling and Fourth Cycle) if it's so unbalanced.

Cool to make stealth&bleed decks better.


No brainer VTES.


PD: More about the other two cards in another post, probably.

I think that with the current state of the game we should not ban cards, but rather "tweak" them in some sensible way. I can imagine that there would be less opposition to seeds of corruption if it could be removed as only one + 1 stealth action instead two etc., you can make some max capacity cap for vampire that can be affected by temptation of higher power, and you could maybe allow the exchange of masters using anthelios only once in one game or something like that

cordovader wrote:

As you see the spread is pretty wide. You just have screwed a lot of nice archetypes for no real reason... And anyway, there are hoser-cards that do the job of removing Anthelios (Not to Be, Uncoiling and Fourth Cycle) if it's so unbalanced.

The deck archetypes you listed are not suddenly unplayable just because Anthelios has been banned.

Anthelios should be banned. This is a game with random card draws and limited resource choices. Effects that go against that, such as Magic of the Smith, Sudario Refraction, or Ashur's Tablets, are one-time effects that can be blocked or interfered with. Anthelios/MMA means that you have an enormous additional resource of effects at your disposal, namely all the masters in your ash heap. It subverts that basic premise of the game.

MMA decks will still do just fine without it, I'll bet.

cordovader wrote:

First of all, I'm in general against any ban, because I think the VEKN is not qualified to decide for cards released by other entities.

The VEKN has been responsible for tournament rules for a long time — including the banned cards list. So it's definitely qualified to decide tournament legal cards.

AaronC wrote:

cordovader wrote:

As you see the spread is pretty wide. You just have screwed a lot of nice archetypes for no real reason... And anyway, there are hoser-cards that do the job of removing Anthelios (Not to Be, Uncoiling and Fourth Cycle) if it's so unbalanced.

The deck archetypes you listed are not suddenly unplayable just because Anthelios has been banned.

Anthelios should be banned. This is a game with random card draws and limited resource choices. Effects that go against that, such as Magic of the Smith, Sudario Refraction, or Ashur's Tablets, are one-time effects that can be blocked or interfered with. Anthelios/MMA means that you have an enormous additional resource of effects at your disposal, namely all the masters in your ash heap. It subverts that basic premise of the game.

MMA decks will still do just fine without it, I'll bet.

Why should your point of view of what the game should be have an impact?

I haven't read your statements in the rulebook.

If you don't like to play Anthelios, you can always choose to don't play it. You can always play Not to Be/Uncoiling/Fourth Cycle if you feel that disturbed about it... Why should you avoid others from having fun?

Statistics from the TWDA say that decks with Anthelios are far away from being a dominant archetype by itself. The case is not even close to ToGP (and I'm not saying I'm for the ban, I think ToGP should stay), where despite the fact all the limitations the card has, it has a HUGE impact on the table. Anthelios has the same impact as any other event or card affecting the whole table. Of course, the controller of Anthelios gets a bigger advantage, since he builds this deck around this mechanic, in the same way a deck that plays Dragonbound or Narrow Minds sets it's strategy around this events mechanics.

Anthelios: played by decks profiting form master re-use.
Dragonbound: played by decks profiting from vampires in torpor (hehe, usually in combination with Carver's, what a combo huh?)
Narrow Minds: played by decks profiting wanting to bleed and not deflecting.


What's your problem with Anthelios?

Cordvader,
First you say you shouldn't care about what Aaron says, then you ignore his argument, then you ask him what his problem with Anthelios is.

So I'll ask you, "why should your point of view of what the game should be have an impact?" when you are not engaging with other points of view?