exclamation-circle Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

20 Jan 2016 07:43 #75061 by cordovader

Cordvader,
First you say you shouldn't care about what Aaron says, then you ignore his argument, then you ask him what his problem with Anthelios is.

So I'll ask you, "why should your point of view of what the game should be have an impact?" when you are not engaging with other points of view?


Because it's a point of view based on opinions like "Anthelios allows MMPA decks to abuse from certain mechanics", "mechanics abused by MMPA decks are too strong", "the game should not be like this".

Let's go statement by statement :

1. First of all it's not abusing, this statement is false. If a normal deck is able of using Anthelios each 2 turns, an MMPA deck it's able of using it every turn. Everyone that has played this kind of decks knows that it's a nice possibility, but you dont use it every turn (normally 2-3 times per game at most).

2. How do you mesure the strength of a card? There are no tools actually to mesure this, except logical thinking (which is going to be something controversial) or facts. Since facts (% of TWDs) say it's not true, this is also a false statement.

3. Again only an opinion, not based on facts, so false argument.


If you want we can base the decissions to ban or not a card on opinion. In that case the community's feedback is necessary and there should be a channel to be able to ban cards. Is this what you guys want? Not me.

In the other hand, if we base balance in facts, I'm sorry, but I see no way you're going to be able to make your point.

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20 Jan 2016 09:35 #75064 by Ashur

Anthelios has the same impact as any other event or card affecting the whole table.

NO. This is NOT true. It´s impact depends on what you can do with the card. Is this very hard to grasp? Pascal explained why the card was banned here, and I agree: www.vekn.net/forum/news-and-announcements/74630-anarchs-unbound-released?start=36#75011

"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
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20 Jan 2016 10:04 - 20 Jan 2016 10:05 #75065 by PetriWessman
Exactly. Anthelios on the table, the effect for a "normal" deck is very small: having to spend their only master card action for the card swap is iffy. For a deck designed to use it, with 3+ MPAs? It's broken, allowing for unlimited, unblockable card recursion every single turn. We've all seen it. We know how broken that is.

This is not a hard thing to grasp.

Without Anthelios, multiple-MPA decks will now need to use means of recursion which are one-offs and which can be countered more reasonably (Ashurs, Sudario, etc etc). This is good for the game.
Last edit: 20 Jan 2016 10:05 by PetriWessman.
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20 Jan 2016 10:29 #75067 by alek
Also don't be folled by number of times the cards appears in TWDA. You've listed basic cards in comparision to anthelios. Following this way of thinking we can assume that cards like:
blood doll (1147 times in TWDA), wake with evening freshness (721), lost in crowds (661) and many other are much more overpowered than every power card in VTES.

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20 Jan 2016 13:07 #75070 by cordovader

Also don't be folled by number of times the cards appears in TWDA. You've listed basic cards in comparision to anthelios. Following this way of thinking we can assume that cards like:
blood doll (1147 times in TWDA), wake with evening freshness (721), lost in crowds (661) and many other are much more overpowered than every power card in VTES.

Exactly. Anthelios on the table, the effect for a "normal" deck is very small: having to spend their only master card action for the card swap is iffy. For a deck designed to use it, with 3+ MPAs? It's broken, allowing for unlimited, unblockable card recursion every single turn. We've all seen it. We know how broken that is.

This is not a hard thing to grasp.

Without Anthelios, multiple-MPA decks will now need to use means of recursion which are one-offs and which can be countered more reasonably (Ashurs, Sudario, etc etc). This is good for the game.


Very small is unprecise. The correct statement is 50% if the effect on a MMPA deck, since you can only fetch 1 card per turn. There are limited turns in the game, so it's not unlimited.

Anthelios can also be easily countered via Not to Be, Uncoiling or Fourth Cycle. So Anthelios can be countered both as it is played and when in play.

The fact that a mechanic is "unblockable" during it's execution has never been problematic: Dreams, Vessel, Mbare Market etc. Note that this 3 are exclusive to it's controller.

So again, false statements. Anthelios bothers you? Play hosers against it.

Anthelios has the same impact as any other event or card affecting the whole table.

NO. This is NOT true. It´s impact depends on what you can do with the card. Is this very hard to grasp? Pascal explained why the card was banned here, and I agree: www.vekn.net/forum/news-and-announcements/74630-anarchs-unbound-released?start=36#75011


And I have the right to don't agree with his explanation. I have reasons and facts.

Not a single one of the ban defenders have supported their reasons with facts, because you have no facts. You have been crying in the forums for months, without even knowing what is the source of your frustration.

The fact that the Rules Team banned the card doesn't justify it by itself.

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20 Jan 2016 13:33 #75071 by Brum
Soon we'll be discussing the definition of the english word "fact".
Regardless:

Anthelios falls into the category of cards that allows someone to play without many of the drawbacks of VtES, while all the other players still have those drawbacks.
That is unfair.
Some of them:
-Having multiple copies of unique masters are no longer a problem. In fact, it is so twisted that it becomes a benefit.
-You have less randomness of hand than your opponents.
-You spend less library to do the same things than your opponents do. Couple that with the above point and it gets ridiculous.
-You take less time to do the same things your opponents do. You use Anthelios AND get to use the master in the same turn. Join that with the two previous points and it gets over 9000.

The last two National tournaments I played, I used Nephandus with LiquidAshurs and 5 Parthenons (obviously).
I won 7 out of 8 of those games.
4 or 5 of those wins were because of Anthelios. The card is strong and unfair.

Oh, I have many decks that will suffer as well.
And the argument of "if you don't like it, go around it or learn to deal with it" can go right back at you.
Change and learn to play with your decks without it.
I will try.
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