file SCE

18 May 2018 17:15 #87143 by elotar
SCE was created by elotar
First, some decklist:

www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=10839

For thouse, who is not in the know, idea there is to rush, play Earth Meld and untap, play psyche, beat target down, rush again because you are untapped, repeat...

What I want to discuss is not this strategy, but generally the power level of SCE cards.

In the Jyhad set there was three of them, all three with attached special effect - untap or continue action as unblocked with +1 stealth.

I genuinely do not know why untap was added to majesty and earth meld, but (that what should be really shown with the deck example) free untap effect is worth a card even when you don't need combat to end.

Superior Form of Mist without SCE part - "burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked" actually is better than superior Shadow Boxing (dual discipline card!).

Superior majesty without SCE is questionable, but obviously at the Jyhad time protean was "main SCE discipline", so presence was not supposed to be so powerful in this area.

One more step - what would you chose: 1)strike:dodge, or 2)no strike, receive damage, but then end combat?

Suddenly the answer is interesting - against ANI, POT or CEL it's better to suffer but then stop combat, against aggro-poke it's better to dodge. So such effect is quite comparable or even better than strike:dodge, which is accepted as fine basic discipline effect.

So what I'm trying to say here is that speaking in the terms of the power level original SCE cards will be quite powerful on both basic and superior level even if SCE was not happening before other strikes.

Actually I'm more and more convinced that in original design of Garfield they was intended to work as such. Actually after writing this topic I even think that they just was strike:dodges - form of mist got dodge effect at basic and obviously the second one was "as above", majesty was the only presence combat card - making it also posessing one of the most powerfull effects in the game was strange. It explains why there was no way for Gangrels to fight SCE (they was fine torporising with the initial strike), cards like Drawing out the Beast, Vampiric Speed and crap load of second round strikes, which obviously are totally useless if combat are supposed to be decided at the first round. O, and melee weapons. But then at some moment (I hope at the playtesting and not just by management decision) there was a change, then it was found that SCE are too powerful, but instead of returning to design intent the IG and Pshyche was introduced, regardless of them breaking all combat structure (it really looks like dumb management decision which were widespread at the industry at the time). And than the game was unleashed on the public and the world still suffer because of it.

So at first it'll be interested to know, do somebody got any information about design process of SCE cards? I've browsed rec.t.c.jyhad newsgroup and found some discussion about timing with some quite late comments (nearly VtES name change moment?) of designers when the present "sequence" was fixed. But as I undersand original rulebook already has SCE happening before strikes, somebody even played them finishing the combat at the moment SCE was played. What was interesting - the commenter was clearly a designer (he was talking about original design intent of the SCE cards), but not Garfield, so as I understand Richard was out of the project at some moment, which corresponds with the theory above.

What to do with all of it is the second question. I think it lies mostly on BC view of the game's future. I, obviously, think, that we should fix mistakes of the past ;)

:splat: NC Russia
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18 May 2018 17:18 #87145 by thelonius reloaded
Replied by thelonius reloaded on topic SCE
I don't understand why (at least in the title) you didn't spell "strike: combat ends" properly.

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18 May 2018 19:43 #87154 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic SCE

thelonius reloaded wrote: I don't understand why (at least in the title) you didn't spell "strike: combat ends" properly.


I've written like essay length text about interesting (for me) events at the very beginning of the VtES history, and this is all you have to comment on this?

:S

:splat: NC Russia
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18 May 2018 20:33 #87155 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic SCE

elotar wrote: But then at some moment (I hope at the playtesting and not just by management decision) there was a change, then it was found that SCE are too powerful, but instead of returning to design intent the IG and Pshyche was introduced, regardless of them breaking all combat structure (it really looks like dumb management decision which were widespread at the industry at the time). And than the game was unleashed on the public and the world still suffer because of it.


You forgot an important part of that story, which is the ending:

"And 24 years later, the game still exists as it did then."

There's a reason why the story ends this way.

Are you ready for it?

Here it is:

Card games are random. Card games have trumps. VTES is a card game that is random and has trumps. This is an intended design feature, not an unintended design flaw.

The world is not suffering. Only you are.
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18 May 2018 21:18 #87159 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic SCE

TwoRazorReign wrote:
The world is not suffering.


It is. Your comment, empty of any substance, but full of aggression, totally uncalled for, clearly shows your pain.

When you are trying to ignore problems they not go away, they start to torture you from inside.

Combat idiosyncrasies were a topic from the very beginning of the game and as we can see they still is. There were couple of moments during said 24 years when it was possible to fix the problem, but powers that be failed to do it, we have such moment now, I would prefer to use it instead of leaving it to others, who will be here after us.

It all will be especially sad, if it really is a result of a one minute decision of somebody not very involved in the design of Jyhad.

:splat: NC Russia
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18 May 2018 22:40 #87162 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic SCE
For what it is worth, I agree with you, Elotar.

TwoRazorReign wrote: You forgot an important part of that story, which is the ending:
"And 24 years later, the game still exists as it did then."
There's a reason why the story ends this way.
Are you ready for it?
Here it is:
Card games are random. Card games have trumps. VTES is a card game that is random and has trumps. This is an intended design feature, not an unintended design flaw.
The world is not suffering. Only you are.


The game still exists on life-support thanks to die-hard fans. It is by no means thriving and healthy. There are maybe 2500 players worldwide and I think that's a generous estimate. The original company who made the game (WOTC) gave up on it, the company who adopted it (WW) went bankrupt, the company who bought out WW and the rights to Vampire had no desire in continuing the game (CCP) and the game is only now stirring from torpor after new WW gave some hardcore fans the green-light to continue printing the game they love (i.e. refuse to let die.)

Saying that because something "still exists" the creators must have done something right isn't the best litmus test for long-term viability IMO. The colosseum of Rome "still exists", the pyramids of Giza "still exist", the Parthenon "still exists" but the peoples who built those things have vanished long ago, their empires collapsed, and their monuments ruined and ravaged by time.

Things that don't change or rise to the occasion of change die. VTES and VTM are both sclerotic and it shows. The business world is full of companies that failed precisely because they refused to change or couldn't.

At least they guys at Black Chantry are talking about changes that could better suit the viability and survivability of the game, and I hope that they take players who say "the game is fine as is" with a grain of salt. As Henry Ford said, "If I had asked the people what they wanted, they would've said, 'A faster horse!'"

/rant

:gang: :AUS: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of Celerity :CEL:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
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