SCE

LivesByProxy wrote:

The game still exists on life-support thanks to die-hard fans. It is by no means thriving and healthy.

Nobody is arguing that. It still exists. Whether healthy or thriving is another conversation.

There are maybe 2500 players worldwide and I think that's a generous estimate. The original company who made the game (WOTC) gave up on it, the company who adopted it (WW) went bankrupt, the company who bought out WW and the rights to Vampire had no desire in continuing the game (CCP) and the game is only now stirring from torpor after new WW gave some hardcore fans the green-light to continue printing the game they love (i.e. refuse to let die.)

So it's a niche game. Niche games have a niche audiences.

Saying that because something "still exists" the creators must have done something right isn't the best litmus test for long-term viability IMO.

Who said anything about long-term viability? I said the game still exists. I didn't say it was "viable" (ie, marketable to a wide audience). The creators must have done something right if the game still exists in some form.

The colosseum of Rome "still exists", the pyramids of Giza "still exist", the Parthenon "still exists" but the peoples who built those things have vanished long ago, their empires collapsed, and their monuments ruined and ravaged by time.

So a card game about vampires is akin to historical landmarks?

Things that don't change or rise to the occasion of change die. VTES and VTM are both sclerotic and it shows. The business world is full of companies that failed precisely because they refused to change or couldn't.

Or maybe VTES is just a niche game that's not really marketable to a wide audience?

At least they guys at Black Chantry are talking about changes that could better suit the viability and survivability of the game, and I hope that they take players who say "the game is fine as is" with a grain of salt. As Henry Ford said, "If I had asked the people what they wanted, they would've said, 'A faster horse!'"

So a game about vampires is akin to cars? Is it more like a car or historical landmark?

/rant

So much hilarious drama in your rant. Thanks for the laughs. VTES is a niche game. I just find it hilarious how these posts claim everybody "failed" the game. The game just "failed." It's not marketable to a wide audience. However, it is a success in that it's a niche game that's been plugging away for 24 years, despite it being a "failure".

TwoRazorReign wrote:

... a card game about vampires ...

It's funny, how many people, playing the game for decades, do not get what VtES really is

The start of this craziness was an argument about timing of sce and hypothetical "intentions " in1994, and a "what if" deal on timing, no?

So, fact of original set is it was thought that Primogen, who didn't contest, were worth more pool than princes, who did contest. There was also Ante, Misdirection costed X and was quite nice, and closer to your topic, I think majesty st basic was free and a burn a blood to untap was bolted on at superior.

We can safely say that in almost 2.5 decades, while we have some editorial room left, design intent from before Kurt Cobain died isn't a relevant reason to look at things.

Now, sce/dodge/first strike is important as we brace for reprints, as combat structure is being discussed. Power level of certain cards (majesty, earth meld) maintain the current balance rather well, but for the sake of logic to keep them important we would make them and some dodges have first strike, make first strike relevant, and take the priority to a new place not because of antiquated and irrelevant design intent, but for streamlining, bending the learning curve Into a less steep slope, and changing for the better while acquiring new players.

Elator, what's the aim? The basis started as "was this the 24 year ago Intent?" And a counter to "it worked fine so far not that way" was "just because its dated doesn't make it correct ".
So I think I see what you are trying to discuss about strikes, but I could be wrong.

I tried... James tried even harder Well... Let phantasmagoria thrive! I hope you'll find what you are looking for!

Thanks to both james and RR! Really good insight into unknown (for me) past (have been playing just for 10 years). You think that you are arguing with me, but actually you are supporting my theory.

Will try to distill key points:

...Presence block-untap-repeat...

...majesty st basic was free and a burn a blood to untap was bolted on at superior.

This was real gold - never thought about it together.

So the story look like this:

At first Form of Mist was designed:
Type: Combat
Requires: Protean
[pro] Strike: dodge.
[PRO] As above. When combat ends this vampire can continue with action with +1 stealth as if unblocked.

Idea here was that block cannot stop this vampire - hi will mist throw the blocker and continue.

Then Earth Meld:
[pro] Strike: dodge.
[PRO] Strike: combat ends immediately, opponent strike has no effect.

In was the standard theme of PRO combat - two cards with close effects like Wolf Claws/Claws of the Dead or Form of the Ghost/Gleam of Red Eyes. Both defensive, but obviously both got it's uses.

Then Majesty:
pre Strike: dodge.
PRE As above. When combat ends this vampire can continue with action as if unblocked.

Idea was the same, as in Form of Mist - block is useless. Obviously no stealth because nobody is trying to hide.

But then playtesting happens and it is found, that Majesty do not work as intended - Waked minions are still able to block, so untap effect was suggested instead, so vampire can continue it's action after Waked blocker will "sleep" again.

bleed->block->untap->repeat was not a bug, it was a feature!

And it was not broken, because dodge is not universal defense - you still can be seriously hurt doing it stupidly.

But then at playtesting happened something like:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

... Zip Gun ... multiple strikes ... Dragon's Breath Rounds... "as damage is being resolved", so it very clearly comes after you know if the other guy is dodging or ending combat or not. ...

And because it was manager's fatty torporised by it, hell break loose and some "clever" fellow suggested to put superior Earth Meld effect to both Majesty and FoM.

As then EM became suboptimal, so they have added untap effect from majesty to it, throwing under the bus the last flufbunny with his question "How the f... will we justify untap effect on a card, representing vampire sinking into the ground?"

Then playtesting, SCE was broken, but manager already liked it, so they introduced counters for two main combat disciplines - POT and CEL.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

... IG ... defending you from weapons....

If IG was introduced as a way of dealing with ubiquitous S:CE, making it rare (R2 in Jyhad, I think) would be an odd way of doing that.

It's not the case - to defend from weapons there was special much more effective cards at C: Canine Horde, Shattering Blow and Fast Hands.

Rarity was aimed at U (counter should be obviously rarer that the card it counters), but U in Jyhad was limited for 3 per discipline/clan, CEL got a slot so Psyche! go there fine, POT was already packed, so IG has to be R.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

... Disarm. ...

... aggro-poke ... with readily available additional strikes ...

... hit you for a lot of damage on that strike, meaning that Fists of Death saw play (which is rarely used in additional strike decks). Also, Pulled Fangs existed dealing agg damage. ...

Valid points. So I actually change my case - there was no SCE in the original intent, except superior effect of one specialized card (EM).

jamesatzephyr wrote:

....Gangrel (almost-)infinite loop decks going to torpor, using Movement of the Slow Body, untapping, repeating. ...

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Primogen, who didn't contest, were worth more pool than princes, who did contest. There was also Ante, Misdirection costed X and was quite nice...

You forget original text of Fame. Yeas, there was some mistakes at Jyhad which were already fixed. How should we conclude from it that other mistakes should not be fixed?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

...sce/dodge/first strike ...we would make... for streamlining...

....what's the aim?...

I can give you an analogue - we got legacy computer system, where there was a bug in the core entered by some intern 24 years ago, generating errors all over the place. Trying to put layers and layers of "steamlining" will solve the consequences, but produce new problems down the line, all the while slowing the system. Look at the monstrosities presented at the combat topics! You will get many new players with such "nonantiquated design".

I would prefer to just find and remove the bug.

Also I'm just interested in the history of the VtES in particular, and stupidity and it's results in general.

elotar wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

... a card game about vampires ...

It's funny, how many people, playing the game for decades, do not get what VtES really is

I mean, all the armchair game designers trying to fix problems in VTES sure seem to forget that it is a card game. It really is astounding.