SCE

Kraus wrote:

I'm simply astounded by the amount of hostility the OP conjures up in and from his posts. I really don't get where it's coming from.

Well, I mean, I think "hostility" is a little strong. I can only speak for myself, but I definitely make fun of the original poster's posts, although I don't mean it in a hostile way. I just think the poster is making super dramatic arguments that are kind of incoherent, and they contain so much hyperbole that it's funny. I mean, the poster made the point that VTES was mismanaged so badly that the world is suffering. I just find this hilarious because we are discussing pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures on them, yet somehow these things are directly related to the suffering of the world. Haha!

TwoRazorReign wrote:

...we are discussing pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures on them, yet somehow these things are directly related to the suffering of the world. Haha!

Dude, if it's not serious, than you won't mind, if SCE will be removed from the game?

Kraus wrote:

To be fair, I still don't get what the point of this thread was supposed to be from the start... Was there a point?

elotar wrote:

What I want to discuss is not this strategy, but generally the power level of SCE cards.

In the Jyhad set there was three of them, all three with attached special effect - untap or continue action as unblocked with +1 stealth.

I genuinely do not know why untap was added to majesty and earth meld, but (that what should be really shown with the deck example) free untap effect is worth a card even when you don't need combat to end.

[...]

So what I'm trying to say here is that speaking in the terms of the power level original SCE cards will be quite powerful on both basic and superior level even if SCE was not happening before other strikes.

In other words, it seems like Elotar supports having all strikes resolve simultaneously, or at the very least S:CE doesn't need to resolve 1st, since S:CE is still powerful enough without needing to resolve first.

He supposes that S:CE was made to resolve 1st by certain early designers of the game for whatever reason. We don't know. But we do know that Jyhad released in 1994 following the success of Magic in 1993, but with Magic Richie. G. had his students playtesting the game in its roughest form presumably a few years before the game was ever printed. We are to suppose that Mark Rein-Hagen and Co. approached Richie. G. later the same year, and that by the next year they had Jyhad developed and playtested.

I know English isn't Elotar's 1st language, but he's not that bad at it.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I mean, the poster made the point that VTES was mismanaged so badly that the world is suffering. I just find this hilarious because we are discussing pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures on them, yet somehow these things are directly related to the suffering of the world. Haha!

The world is full of suffering. VTES is not popular. Ergo, the world is full of suffering because VTES is not popular.

Some more insights on the topic

"Goudie: ... I imagine you were still close enough to the game to see changes made via rulings or errata that went against your original vision.

Garfield: I remember that in particular and I was in there fighting the changes! Typically though I let the people responsible for the product make the changes they think they need to make with my advice remaining advice, and not becoming commandments. This way they learn firsthand, and those lessons are always more powerful, and seldom is a mistake so bad it can’t be undone later."

Geniuses are so naive!

Some more not quite relevant, but gold:

"Goudie: What Jyhad game mechanics are you most proud of?

Garfield: I really like the political cards and the voting system. It is something I haven’t been able to really use since also, so it remains – among my games – uniquely a property of Jyhad."

#votepushing toasted in 98

"Goudie: Did you enjoy working with such a well-developed setting for the game?

Garfield: It is always tough to work in someone elses world. On balance this was one of the best worlds I worked with, partially because White Wolf really respected my interpretation of their world in a trading card game format, and that allowed me to be more creative and, I think, provide a better game"

About history of the game 4 LBP
Basic part of Jyhad (prey-predator relationships, edge and politics) was developed by Garfield for some time before VTM licensing - there was MTG variant with prey-predator structure and VP, for example. Ideas about having no need for lands and more faster hand replenishment were also being developed. So when ...

"Peter Adkison (Wizards of the Coast President): But at the time we never envisioned that TCGs would ever be a market that's comparable in size to RPGs. We figured that we would be the "TCG Specialist," the company that would do all these small little TCG products that the big RPG companies wouldn't get around to doing. That's why we pursued licenses to publish TCGs for various RPG properties (specifically, Vampire: The Masquerade, Cyberpunk 2020, and Battletech)."

... core of the game already was made, they just packed it into VTM flavor and do some adjustments. Maybe not so small...

"Peter Adkison: I do recall that there was an earlier version of the game that Richard didn't like, which he showed me and we agreed to scrap that version altogether. But then he came up with the core mechanics for the game as you know it now and we were both really happy with it."

And then comes said angry manager with a toreador deck, even not alone:

"Adkison: Jyhad was criticized by some people within Wizards (and within White Wolf) for being too complex. It was felt that goths wouldn't want a game this hard."

This, I think, also shows "healthy" the atmosphere during development:

Adkison: ...Vindication is kind of a dark word to use--but this is a dark genre, so I guess that's okay. I guess where I feel particularly vindicated is in defending Richard Garfield's choice as a designer. There was some question as to whether Richard could design for the Vampire genre, whether he "got it"