file How can one churn excess or duplicate Master cards (beneficially)?

04 Jun 2018 10:09 #87892 by Khaan
Gear up
Delaying tactics (higher opportunity cost)
Powerbase LA

Lackeyname: Kris

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04 Jun 2018 10:38 - 04 Jun 2018 10:41 #87894 by Bloodartist

Personally I´d like the game to move more from focus on master cards to focus on minion actions, but crypt acceleration with masters is of course often very crucial if you play bigcaps.


There are several reasons why master cards are so crucial.
- Acceleration when you are playing big caps is one.

- Minion actions can be blocked, way more easily and more commonly than you can cancel a master card. Using a master card for such an action is thus "safer". If you base your deck on minion actions (imagine for example an anarch vote deck that uses actions to become a baron and field training to gain disciplines), a dedicated wall deck can shut such a deck down in its infancy.

- In many of my decks, especially combat decks, I have to spend several master card slots for blood economy. Using master cards to gain blood is so safe and effective, in comparison to other options. Especially when considering how easily actions can be blocked. Hunting is such a weak action, and having your hunt action blocked when you are empty is devastating.
Many alternate minion action options for gaining blood are also quite ineffective: Palatial estate costs 2 blood and gains you 1 blood per turn. Thus it takes THREE turns (counting the one you use to get estate) JUST to reach parity (same amount of blood you had before you acquired p.estate. Same for procurer. I wonder who invented these cards.. I think we should look into introducing new, more efficient minion action card options for gaining blood, or gaining a hunting ground as a minion action. Currently its just too effective to use master cards for this.

- Often a master card is a time-efficient method of achieving something, and synergizes with your normal minion actions. For example decks running effective management to gain a horde of minions and then using tribute to the master to reclaim pool. These master cards are either something that no minion card can achieve, or are simply more effective in what they do compared to minion cards.

If we want to move more into minion actions in game design, we need to introduce minion actions that are of comparable power level. Otherwise its just all talk.

Well, Stefan Karlsson´s deck "Ban Giant´s Blood" works very well: www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=14813


Nerf to villein hits this deck.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 04 Jun 2018 10:41 by Bloodartist.

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04 Jun 2018 12:49 #87897 by Boris The Blade

You want to draw certain masters very early, like Info Highway & Zillah’s Valley, so you put multiple copies in your deck.

Problem: you’ll jam on the copies you draw later in the game.

I am not quite sure about the premise. People do not typically play Zillah's Valley in star decks with a single big cap, but in all big-cap decks that have robust pool gain to influence their minions, Those decks can use Zillah's Valley all game long.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

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04 Jun 2018 14:00 - 04 Jun 2018 14:04 #87899 by ReverendRevolver
Its Important to note that zillahs valley as well as Tomb of ramses have waxed and waned in popularity over the years, boiling down to aggressive weenie/midcap popularity and of course just changing playstyle trends.

Girls style decks were successful not because they could get out the 2+ fatties fast, but because they pulled them out, villeined them, then liliths blessing added blood. So, the cost of Aksynia and Cybele and Nana was 0 each, and while the deck do additional stuff to gain way too much pool, other fatty decks copied that tactic. Lots of decks did.

Anyway, Ziilahs is just one more example of how you have to decide what not to include in your deck if you have to draw something else over it. Gotta balance the master package.

Or just play setites and run eternals, that way it's more pool efficient and its ascendance later on :)

I've had more luck with not running Zillahs that with running it. Without lillths and villein for 11, my deck with Hardestadt, saulot, fakir, and eleimelech will not be happening again, but I'm ok with that.

My most successful decks yo run with 3 ready minions every game who are 7+ caps is always fortitude and and cards that give beads to uncontrolled minions. In fluff I'm not a ventrue fan, but govern, enchant, scouting and freak drive are a nice way to 7 free beads on a 9 cap in your uncontrolled region.

Other crypt accelerators I'm a huge fan of are Nicolas Vermilion (moves his blood to uncontrolled Nos) Mary Anne Blair (built in scouting mission action) grooming the protege (move 3 beads to younger vamp of same clan)
Tend the flock (3 free beads to uncontrolled baali) power powerbase Montreal, and even Dreams of the sphinx.

Anyways, how to churn from hand is Specialization, Aksynia, heart of cheating, any draw extra mechanic, Thucimia, storage annex... it's better to either use Aksynia or have responsible numbers of zillahs.
Last edit: 04 Jun 2018 14:04 by ReverendRevolver.

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04 Jun 2018 14:06 #87900 by LivesByProxy

Somebody should make a Shock Troops deck!


What is the point of shock troops though? Haven Uncovered and then rush with Shock Troops? Also, it's just too expensive. X pool and requires Master:Discipline cards? Maybe if they could bleed, maybe.

Personally I´d like the game to move more from focus on master cards to focus on minion actions, but crypt acceleration with masters is of course often very crucial if you play bigcaps.


- Minion actions can be blocked, way more easily and more commonly than you can cancel a master card.

If we want to move more into minion actions in game design, we need to introduce minion actions that are of comparable power level. Otherwise its just all talk.


IMO, minion actions can be blocked so easily because the stealth/intercept aspect of the game is poorly balanced and little explored and very boringly executed on. So many cards give +stealth or +intercept without any sort of conditional or requirement to be fulfilled. Cards like Eyes of the Dead have the right idea: give +stealth/+intercept outside of Obfuscate/Auspex in an interesting way. Unfortunately, "+intercept if a minion you control is being diablerized" is a bit too narrow, but imagine if it were "+intercept if you have a minion in torpor." Better right? Do you know of any cards that grant +stealth "only on hunt actions"? I know of Abiku, but I can't find any library cards. Hag's Wrinkles is the only card that grants +stealth on equip actions (for some odd reason...) If we gave +stealth/+intercept bonuses for different actions, then maybe the stealth/intercept aspect of the game would be more interesting and fun.

Also, to any VEKN Design Team people reading this, can we please give every action get a default of 1 stealth, so you don't have to print "+1 stealth action" on every action card, and so I don't have to explain to new players that every action gets +1 stealth except for bleeding and that action cards don't have a default of 1 stealth plus "+1 stealth" for a total of 2 stealth. Consistency is a good thing and aid new players.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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04 Jun 2018 20:38 #87919 by elotar

What is the point of shock troops though? Haven Uncovered and then rush with Shock Troops? Also, it's just too expensive. X pool and requires Master:Discipline cards?


Obviously you should go with combat.
Which one I do not know - you need something which works bot with basic and superior level of discipline.
Then you should add Becoming's, bunch of discipline skill cards, something to gain blood for sabbat, War Parties maybe. Shock Troops you are using when you are choked.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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