file If Govern was 2 blood (analysis)

26 Mar 2019 14:24 #94268 by elotar

TwoRazorReign wrote: People may shy away from bleeds of 3 or more if they know there's a good chance it's going to get redirected, which I think would grind the game to a halt.


That's why it's pointless. If we got some people, who think that the game will be much better when regular bleeds will be for 2 and some who think that it will not work without bleeds of 3+, than there are nothing to meaningfully discuss.

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26 Mar 2019 14:25 #94269 by Mewcat

Kraus wrote: To be fair though, I don't know what should be done about it (if anything). There's also the factor of the first player practically skipping a lot of build-up momentum just because they happened to draw the shortest straw, and to be honest I don't know how much going first actually helps in VtES. Stuff like that that aren't directly card text related.


It's a stitch in time saves nine situation. To fix this mess 20 years ago would have required a few nudges. Now everything revolves around the mega bleeds and it would require much bigger changes. Do I have ideas on what to do? Sure, but I'm not sure what the point is.

I don't really expect anything to change. The community that still plays vtes through its multiple failures is inured to it at this point, largely seeing it as the best of all possible worlds. While I do like fluxations and Leibnitz in general on this one we differ.

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27 Mar 2019 07:16 #94272 by Lönkka
I think Govern (like Conditioning, Deflection, Scouting Mission and Threats) is a card harking way back to original release of Jyhad and kinda sets an example. In this case the example is what a very powerful card should be like.

Start dismantling and alternating such foundations and you are on a neverending slippery slope to find the mythical "balance"...

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27 Mar 2019 09:55 #94275 by Mewcat

Lönkka wrote: I think Govern (like Conditioning, Deflection, Scouting Mission and Threats) is a card harking way back to original release of Jyhad and kinda sets an example. In this case the example is what a very powerful card should be like.

Start dismantling and alternating such foundations and you are on a neverending slippery slope to find the mythical "balance"...


Or it's about as dumb as ancestral recall in magic.

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27 Mar 2019 11:05 #94276 by Lech

Lönkka wrote: I think Govern (like Conditioning, Deflection, Scouting Mission and Threats) is a card harking way back to original release of Jyhad and kinda sets an example. In this case the example is what a very powerful card should be like.

Start dismantling and alternating such foundations and you are on a neverending slippery slope to find the mythical "balance"...


Nice strawman, props.
Of course you can and should adjusting power level of problematic cards, and banning some of them shouldn't be a big deal.

I personally think that it should be very conservative, like banning govern first.

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27 Mar 2019 12:29 #94277 by skimflux

Lönkka wrote: I think Govern (like Conditioning, Deflection, Scouting Mission and Threats) is a card harking way back to original release of Jyhad and kinda sets an example. In this case the example is what a very powerful card should be like.

Start dismantling and alternating such foundations and you are on a neverending slippery slope to find the mythical "balance"...


I doubt the designers knew exactly what a 'very powerful card' should look like at the time - the only template for CCGs at the time was MtG, which had a very different set of design principles. As an example: based on its cost and rarity we can guess that Body of Sun was designed as a 'very powerful card', yet it's a crappy card that doesn't appear in the TWDA at all.

I find it telling that the main change from the initial release (Jyhad) to VTES was to introduce 4 cards to help non-Dominate/Auspex decks against big stealth & bleed (Protected Resources, Archon Investigation, Elder Intervention, and Justicar Retribution). One of these is still a staple in decks today, but while plenty of cards have been introduced to improve big bleed strategies there is no other card like Archon Investigation, usable in every deck and adding a significant risk to big bleeders.

'Balance' is whatever the game designers want it to be - it is certainly arguable that we have been on a 'neverending slippery slope' since 1995, making big bleeders and fast decks more dominant with every new set.
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