file [Fairyworld] Examining combat cards and strategies and how they should work

30 Jul 2018 06:28 - 30 Jul 2018 06:30 #89451 by Kraus

My specific issue was with Kraus suggesting that Shadow Boxing was not a niche card, but rather a key card to Nos decks that hasn't been discovered yet.

Okay, so I had to double check what I've written about Shadow Boxing, since I can't remember ever thinking IRL, let alone writing here, that Shadow Boxing was more than an interesting idea and somewhat powerful in some super specific builds in small quantities.

This is what I wrote, for reference. Firstly:

I wrote: Otherwise there are some good points about stealth/combat comparison as a delivery method here.

Shadow Boxing was a cool new design, but hasn't seen too much play yet. Maybe because of how non-dominate Nosferatu aren't really that hot.

Then, after being called out for over praising the card:

I wrote: Okay, yeah, I was kind of thinking that if Nosferatu finally got a decent ousting mechanism for themselves or whatever it could see some play. The design is cute after all, and TRIES to address the combat=//=delivery problem. With the current card pool it's not fantastic (even though I've seen some funny Lucian the Perfect combat decks use it).

I'm having hard time finding where I called it a crucial staple for Nosferatu delivery. My words at the time seem to suggest on the contrary.

If I missed some of my posts or the present-me is missing a hidden cue from the past-me, I stand corrected.

If not, my meaning has been misinterpreted. I'll rephrase once more, as you mentioned my posts twice now and it seems important to you:

At least combat as a delivery method has been explored in Shadow Boxing. Too bad it isn't stronger with the current card pool, but since it's not at all impossible to kill minions, with better ousting mechanisms introduced for Nossies the design has merits. I'm eager to see what's in the future.

But anyways, it was originally meant as a sidenote, and I don't care that much either way. It's just, like, my opinion, man. :)

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

Facebook @ VtES: Joensuu
Last edit: 30 Jul 2018 06:30 by Kraus.

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30 Jul 2018 15:25 #89459 by ReverendRevolver
Shadow boxing would go in more of my decks if I didn't have to print it, but...

Honestly, its always been cut for upping Swallowed by the Night by 2 copies in my Cock Robin variants. I made finals with the same deck last month and honestly Shadow boxing wouldn't have done much more good in the situations where I took a whole table before finals or when I couldn't put away my prey in finals.

Shadow Boxing
[Action Modifier] Action Modifier
[Combat] Combat

[Obfuscate] Obfuscate
[Potence] Potence

[obf] [pot] [COMBAT] Maneuver, only usable to go to close range, or press, only usable to continue combat.
[OBF] [POT] [ACTION MODIFIER] Only usable after a combat resulting from a block. Not usable if the blocking minion is ready. This vampire burns 1 blood to continue the action as if unblocked.

My rushes needed to hit the initial targets. :for: freak drive cannot untap ne if I'm blocked, so shadow boxing seems ok, except that only Cock (not Calebros or Nik) can use it to get to my Initial rush target, but both princes can totally use SbtN to get the deep song/ttcb rush to hit the initial (intended) victim.
If I were playing something with Zelios and BaronD, shadow boxing would be fine, but I dont, so I'm my decks ot hasnt found its niche yet.
I have it listed in untested snake punch decks, because Ghede getting blocked, playing TLF, torping the blocker then boxing into the target sounds hilarious, and fatties+ eternals+villein means my crypt probably has :OBF: :POT: so the manuever on SB is better than running slam, given how typhonic beast is the focal point of combat, it all flows in a more SB friendly way.

But pdf "niche" cards do their job, thanks to instantaneous transformation, many things are no longer unplayable, and some dec in s got even better.

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30 Jul 2018 15:39 #89460 by TwoRazorReign

Kraus wrote: But anyways, it was originally meant as a sidenote, and I don't care that much either way. It's just, like, my opinion, man. :)

I agree, it doesn't really matter. The only reason why I kept bringing it up was because Lonnka didn't get what I was trying to say (which was in fact a misinterpretation of what you were trying to say [thanks for clarifying]). So there was just a chain of people talking past each other, which is wont to happen on internet forums.

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30 Jul 2018 17:01 #89463 by jamesatzephyr

TwoRazorReign wrote: My outsider opinion is that VTES has some "unwritten rules" that ensure responsible play. I have read about "responsible bleeding," or not just bleeding out your grand prey when bounced. I feel like a similar concept exists for combat, where players are seen as irresponsible if they don't play combat "the right way." These unwritten rules contribute to the social part of VTES that a lot of people find charming.

That's not really an unwritten rule nor a social convention in any meaningful sense. I mean, it's not like when Jyhad was first created and people - understandably - had a hard time dealing with some archetypes, and there was often some social pressure not to play them.

Responsible bleeding is one perfectly rational response to the game's incentives. In broad generalities: Winning requires VPs. VPs require ousting your prey. The game includes several potent forms of bleed bounce, most notably Deflection. The game includes the ability to bleed for large amounts at stealth. The combination of bleed bounce and large bleeds at stealth can undermine your ability to oust your prey by accidentally ousting your grand-prey. Not only does that give your prey one of the VPs that you want, it gives your prey six pool, making it harder to oust them. Therefore, one rational response is to find ways that stop you ousting your grand prey. One option is bleeding for small amounts a lot, rather than a few large amounts. Another is to use Spying Mission. Another is to use Tangle Atropos' Hand (if your grand-prey can announce a block attempt, you can cancel the action, even if it is at a bajillion stealth and they have no intercept). Another option is to go for power-bleed rather than stealth, so you rarely go to much stealth but can take out blockers with block-prevention/cancellation cards (Call of the Hungry Dead which also provides negative intercept, Seduction, Elder Impersonation etc.), so if you do go to your grand-prey, they can much more easily block. Tapping that hideously annoying bouncer can help (e.g. Misdirection), and you may have other minion manipulation abilities (Banishment, combat, whatever) that can take them out.

That your grand-prey stays in the game a little longer is a side-effect, but not the motive. The motive is hurting your prey and getting the VP, rather than giving them a VP.
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