file [Submission] support discipline changes

02 Aug 2018 17:23 #89550 by ReverendRevolver
So, protean and necromancy are support disciplines that historically aren't very supportive.

Protean:
Protean isn't terrible, but it does very little for the Gangrel with most of its cards. The 2 offshoots of it for the bloodlines in vtes are way better and coherent than regular Gangrel because :abo: and :spi: are better and more coherent. They should be better or more specialized versions of protean, not just way better period. So, here are some changes I feel could help gangrel use their cards better.
[I'm aware its unlikely these will ever be changed, but we can at least discuss the "what if" theories, right? And if BC randomly change said cards someday, all the better.]

Sonar

Do not replace until after the current turn. [pro] +1 intercept, only usable against a (D) action. [PRO] +1 intercept.

Fix: remove DNR clause, and change basic to a wake instead of intercept.

Shape Mastery

[pro] [COMBAT] Cancel a combat card that requires Obtenebration [obt], Protean [pro], or Vicissitude [vic] as it is played (no cost is paid). The opposing minion cannot play that card again this action. [PRO] [REACTION] As above, but cancel an action modifier that requires any of those Disciplines.

Fix: change basic to say:
[pro] [COMBAT] Cancel a combat card that requires Obtenebration [obt], Vicissitude [vic], or any discipline possessed by this vampire as it is played (no cost is paid). The opposing minion cannot play that card again this action.

This makes it a way to cancel a wide array of cards, and way more relevant.

Form of the Ghost

[pro] Maneuver. [PRO] Press.

Fix: :pro: manuever or press :PRO: manuever with an optional press.

This makes it sick less, and put it on playable level. But what about its opposite no cost version?

Gleam of Red Eyes

[pro] Press. [PRO] Maneuver.

Fix: :pro: maneuver or press. :PRO: press, and put this card on this vampire. This vampire may burn this card for a manuever.

Dissolution
1blood
Dissolution
[pro] Maneuver or press. [PRO] Maneuver, with an optional press.

Fix: [pro] Maneuver, with an optional press, or press.
[PRO] [react] +1 intercept.

Adaptability
1blood
[pro] This vampire treats all aggravated damage from the opposing minion's strike as normal damage. [PRO] Prevent all aggravated damage from the opposing minion's strike.
Fix: remove cost.

Necromancy:


I deliberately only looked at a few of these, but here they are. If necromancy sucked less at being a support discipline with what's already printed, it would open up viability to decks. Limited blocking/ Intercept and recursion with a touch of increasing hand size make thematic sense with necro. I've yet to think up hand size help on current cards, but recursion and blocking with bids to wraiths is easy.

Baleful Doll
1blood
Unique. [nec] Choose a vampire controlled by your prey. Bearer can lock himself or herself and burn the Baleful Doll during his or her unlock phase to have the chosen vampire burn 3 blood. [NEC] As above, but choose a vampire controlled by any Methuselah.

Fix: remove locking to use. I think this one may be a lost cause...

Death Pact
1blood
This card is an action card that becomes a retainer card. +1 stealth action. [nec] (D) Put this card on a ready vampire. If that vampire is burned, put this card on the vampire who brought this card into play. This card then represents a wraith retainer with 2 life. Once each combat, the vampire with this retainer may treat one aggravated damage inflicted on him or her as normal. [NEC] As above, but the retainer has 3 life.
Fix: make it target any minion, cost one less, and grant an Intercept. It's still not great.

Eyes of the Dead

Only usable when a reacting vampire you control attempts to block a vampire who is attempting to diablerize one of your vampires. [nec] This reacting vampire gets +1 intercept. [NEC] As above, but with +2 intercept.

Fix: this is the poster child of unplayable cards in a junk discipline. Complete rewrite:

Only usable during a d action. Usable by a locked vampire.
:nec: this vampire wakes and attempts to block.
:NEC: this vampire bums a blood to get +X intercept, where X is the number of Wraiths you control.

Haunt
1blood
+1 stealth action. [nec] Put this card on a location you control. The controller of this location can burn this card to cause an action directed at this location to fail. A location can have only one Haunt. [NEC] (D) Burn a location that doesn't require Giovanni to play.

Fix: remove cost AND make it inflict an unpreventable damage when burned.

Summon Soul

+1 stealth action. [nec] This vampire gains 2 blood. [NEC] Remove this card from the game and move up to 2 cards from your ash heap to your library. Shuffle your library afterward.

Fix: add "as above, and" to superior, and add "this vampire untaps during your discard phase" to inferior.

Whispers from the Dead
1blood
[nec] Move a library card from your ash heap to your hand (discard afterward). [NEC] As above, but with +1 stealth.

Fix: add "and unlock this acting minion" to superior. Honestly, it would be better if it shuffled up to 5 minion cards back into target Methuselahs library at Superior and was just at Inherent stealth. That would hinder decks that rely on recursion or deck thinning, such as Legionaires, Diary, and twister decks, and help combat and wall decks regain cards.

Thoughts?

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02 Aug 2018 20:08 #89557 by Lönkka
Protean's stealth/combat package is beyond none!

Just stellar.

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03 Aug 2018 00:07 #89573 by LivesByProxy
I had a suggested Protean card a few months ago that attempted to give :PRO: users access to other disciplines for flexibility and replace the Master:Discipline cards.

Maybe something like this:

+1 stealth action. Put this card on this minion. This minion can burn 1 blood and lose :PRO: until the end of the turn to gain your choice of Auspex :AUS:, Celerity :CEL:, Fortitude :FOR:, Potence :POT:, or Obfuscate :OBF: until the end of the turn. If this action is successful, unlock this minion.

(Yes, this is like my special ability.) The idea is obviously to give Gangrel massive flexibility and let the Country / City Gangrel be mixed and matched more easily.

Lonkka wrote: Protean's stealth/combat package is beyond none! Just stellar.


But isn't having Earth Control = "'Lost In Crowds' but Protean" really lame? It is IMO. There is nothing to differentiate the two cards other than the discipline requirement and blood cost, and I don't think those are sufficient for making a separate card. Cards should be as unique as possible, within reason.

ReverendRevolver wrote: Eyes of the Dead

Only usable when a reacting vampire you control attempts to block a vampire who is attempting to diablerize one of your vampires. [nec] This reacting vampire gets +1 intercept. [NEC] As above, but with +2 intercept.

Fix: this is the poster child of unplayable cards in a junk discipline. Complete rewrite:

Only usable during a d action. Usable by a locked vampire.
:nec: this vampire wakes and attempts to block.
:NEC: this vampire bums a blood to get +X intercept, where X is the number of Wraiths you control.


Your fix is in the right direction, but I would take it in a different direction:
:aus: :nec: This vampire wakes and attempts to block. He or she gets +1 intercept if you control a vampire in torpor.
:AUS: :NEC: As above, but this vampire gets +X intercept, where X is the number of vampires you control in torpor.


This makes it more geared toward Harbingers specifically, but the point is that it interacts with vampires in torpor. Necromancy, as a VTES mechanic, should interact with torpor and turn a weakness (being in torpor) into a strength. Necromancy already plays with cards in the ash heap, why not play with vampires in torpor? Fortitude also to some extent interacts with torpor, and the Harbingers also have Fortitude, go figure.

Similarly, I think Protean has a lot of potential to interact with torpor, but VTES is forever chained to the presumptions of VTM source material - and since Protean (and I guess Necromancy) didn't interact with torpor in the books, then I guess it would be heresy to suppose they should interact with torpor at all.

Chrysalis
+2 stealth action. Only usable by a vampire in torpor.
:for: :pro: Put this card on this vampire. This vampire cannot be diablerized unless the acting minion's controller discards two cards requiring Potence :pot:. During each player's untap phase, put 1 :blood: from the blood bank on this vampire. If this action is blocked, there is no combat; if the blocking minion is a vampire who can commit diablerie, that vampire may diablerize this acting vampire.
:FOR: :PRO: As above, but if this action is blocked, the opposing minion may not commit diablerie, even if he or she could diablerize this vampire.

:gang: :AUS: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of Celerity :CEL:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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03 Aug 2018 09:07 #89587 by Lönkka

LivesByProxy wrote:

Lonkka wrote: Protean's stealth/combat package is beyond none! Just stellar.


But isn't having Earth Control = "'Lost In Crowds' but Protean" really lame? It is IMO. There is nothing to differentiate the two cards other than the discipline requirement and blood cost, and I don't think those are sufficient for making a separate card. Cards should be as unique as possible, within reason.


Yeah, both cards are from the original release so they've been around since Day One.

If Mr Garfield thought this was OK perhaps you shouldn't try to invent your own rules of uniqueness? BTW why would Lost in the Crowds be better choice for claiming the original status for such card as both are from Jyhad?


So you think that Protean Stealth/Combat is Earth Control?
An awesome card, but I suggest checking out Form of Mist!
Also Earth Meld.

Add Celerity to the mix and you get Instantaneous Transformation.

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03 Aug 2018 11:47 #89594 by Lech
Overall it's bad design that there are no .5 in vtes, many wallpaper cards would be better with 0.5 cost instead of 1.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
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03 Aug 2018 18:02 #89605 by ReverendRevolver
I feel that protean has the BEST (hands down, if you disagree you're obviously a Malkavian) S:CE in all of vtes between Form of Mist, earth meld, and even rapid change to some extent.
It also has access to stealth.
But it is supposed to be a support discipline, and it should be to Gangrel what a bloodline discipline is to them, because :qui: :chi: :pro: and :tha: kind of shake out that way in vtes, but get splattered around other clans more.

Protean us great at one niche in the game, but it doesn't support gangrel Much, that's an issue I've had.
Necromancy is another sort of issue completely, I'm afraid...

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