file Trap rewording

08 Aug 2018 09:27 #89796 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Trap rewording

I still think further clarity is needed. I've suggested something similar to this previously: "Each time a card is played this combat, add as many counters to this card that are needed (if any) to reach, but not exceed, 3 counters."


DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner!
Clear, unambiguous, wording.

Otherwise we'll have people typing questions about how to play this card from here 'till eternity. Again.

SInce we have space in the card to use enough wrds to make it crystal clear, why don't we?

Finnish :POT: Politics!

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08 Aug 2018 10:49 - 08 Aug 2018 10:52 #89798 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Trap rewording

Except that two people who understand English misunderstood the current wording. I do think the current wording needs to take into account what happens when 3 counters are already on the card, or if you play more than one combat card in a round. I guarantee people will wonder what happens if you can't put any counters on the card, or if they must put excess counters on the card for multiple combat cards played in the round.


"Add, UNTIL it has three." -> If it has three, don't add.
What is so complicated?

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 08 Aug 2018 10:52 by Bloodartist.

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08 Aug 2018 11:40 - 08 Aug 2018 11:41 #89801 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Trap rewording

Except that two people who understand English misunderstood the current wording. I do think the current wording needs to take into account what happens when 3 counters are already on the card, or if you play more than one combat card in a round. I guarantee people will wonder what happens if you can't put any counters on the card, or if they must put excess counters on the card for multiple combat cards played in the round.


"Add, UNTIL it has three." -> If it has three, don't add.
What is so complicated?


To you nothing. To people unfamiliar with the game, I forsee 2 questions with the current wording:

"What if the card already has 3 counters? I can't put any on there. What happens? Does the card have no effect?"

And

"But, 3 combat cards were played this round. Should I put 9 counters on the card instead of 3?"

These are questions people unfamiliar with the game will ask. Guaranteed. Adding a few characters to clarify exactly how many counters should be on the card at a given time may not seem necessary to you, a person I assume who is familiar with the game and how Trap works. But it's really necessary for people reading the card for the first time and trying to understand how it works.
Last edit: 08 Aug 2018 11:41 by TwoRazorReign.
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08 Aug 2018 16:01 #89807 by Sambomb
Replied by Sambomb on topic Trap rewording

During the press step, if any Methuselah has played a card earlier in the current round or during the two previous rounds, the Trap automatically provides a press to continue (either combatant can press to end).

Put 3 counters on this card. Each card played adds 3 counters to this card, maximum 3 counters. During the press step, burn 1 counter on this card to provide a press to continue (either combatant can press to end). Burn this card at the end of the combat.


Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510

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08 Aug 2018 19:43 #89811 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple
This is an interesting case study. Kudos to Vincent.....for demonstrating why BCP should not crowd source card text.

Nonetheless, I'll pile on, breaking down comments on the proposal line by line. And let me say up front - VIncent's proposal is already FAR superior to the existing text.

Trap
Only usable before range is determined during the first round of combat.

Established templating = good

Put this card in play with 3 counters.
Huge improvement to visualize the number of presses (and therefore additional rounds) coming. Adding, instead of removing, counters seems less intuitive to me - the number of additional rounds is not sitting right there on the card if you count up.

Each time a card is played this combat, add counters to this card until it has 3 counters.
I like "when a card is played during this combat" for this line, because I think "when" is more consistent with existing templates than "each time." Might be wrong, as templates are changing, but I think "when" is still more common than "each time." Nitpick: It is also grammatically preferred to have that "during" to establish the duration of the effect.

I approve of the notion that "add counters to this card (if needed) until it has 3 counters" pretty explicitly handles what to do if Trap already has 3 counters.....meaning nothing with respect to that sentence on the card. I seldom like parenthetical text, but here it might be merited.

During the press step of each round this combat, this Trap automatically burns 1 counter from itself to provide 1 press to continue combat (either combatant can press to end combat).
Seems clumsy...burning a counter from itself. Nothing else I can think of does that.

We recently defined "environmental damage" with cards like Carrion Crows. Could Trap introduce an "environmental press to continue" to simplify the text?

I propose: "During the press step each round this combat, burn a counter from Trap and this round gains 1 environmental press to continue."

Here's a place where the current template of "gains 1" is maybe more ambiguous than "gains a(n)" - but it should be clear that presses from stacked Traps are cumulative because each Trap burns a counter and feeds the round 1 press independently.

You no longer need the parenthetical "(either combatant can press to end combat)" because it's clear neither pressed in the first place, it's environmental. But if the extra text makes things more clear, sure, include it.

Burn this card at the end of combat.
Perfectly clear in templating and more reflective of the way Trap works now than using "Burn this card when it has no counters" - since Taste of Vitae and Telepathic Tracking would both reset Trap now.

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09 Aug 2018 06:20 - 09 Aug 2018 06:24 #89817 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Trap rewording

To you nothing. To people unfamiliar with the game, I forsee 2 questions with the current wording:

"What if the card already has 3 counters? I can't put any on there. What happens? Does the card have no effect?"

You answered your own question. You cannot put any there, therefore you don't put any there.

And

"But, 3 combat cards were played this round. Should I put 9 counters on the card instead of 3?"

Card says you put up to 3, so you put 3.

These are questions people unfamiliar with the game will ask. Guaranteed. Adding a few characters to clarify exactly how many counters should be on the card at a given time may not seem necessary to you, a person I assume who is familiar with the game and how Trap works. But it's really necessary for people reading the card for the first time and trying to understand how it works.


I don't see how these questions are related to the game, and thus would plague players unfamiliar with the game. The text already answers this, and you can understand what happens even if you have only passing knowledge of VTES or even ccg's in general.

The problem as I see it is understanding the sentence and basic logic. Original suggested wording is a case of simple "if - then" logic sentence. Treat each card played as an individual case. If a card is played during combat, keep adding counters to this card, then stop when you reach 3. (If there is already 3 counters, stop (don't add)).

If people cannot understand this simplest of logic sentences, I don't see how some obtuse extra wording is going to change things, except for the worse.

I am sure there is some meme image waiting to be posted here but I cannot be bothered since its morning and I need to fix decks for todays weekly games. Walls of text on cards is already an issue with VTES cards (especially when those walls of text fail at providing us with meaningful card mechanics), and we should strive toward having simplest possible card texts that still explain the card adequately.


Except that two people who understand English misunderstood the current wording.


I am not convinced that said people understand english. I know Lönkka doesn't speak it as native language. Not sure about others.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 09 Aug 2018 06:24 by Bloodartist.

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