Trap rewording
09 Aug 2018 13:39 #89838
by TwoRazorReign
What is an environmental press? A press without a source or recipient? Without explanation, this is likely not a good idea to add to the card. I would strongly suggest defining the concept first, then add it to cards.
As for "put back all counters that were burned this way on this card," this could potentially be interpreted as put back more than 3 counters, if more than 3 were burned during the combat (ie, people will wonder if the number of counters burned are cumulative). Hence why I was suggesting "not to exceed 3 counters."
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Trap rewording
What about (changes underlined):
Only usable before range is determined during the first round of combat.
Put this card in play with 3 counters. At the start of the press step of each round this combat, this Trap automatically burns 1 counter from itself to provide 1 environmental press to continue combat (either combatant can press to end combat). Each time a card is played this combat, put back all counters that were burned this way on this card. Burn this card at the end of combat.
What is an environmental press? A press without a source or recipient? Without explanation, this is likely not a good idea to add to the card. I would strongly suggest defining the concept first, then add it to cards.
As for "put back all counters that were burned this way on this card," this could potentially be interpreted as put back more than 3 counters, if more than 3 were burned during the combat (ie, people will wonder if the number of counters burned are cumulative). Hence why I was suggesting "not to exceed 3 counters."
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09 Aug 2018 14:01 #89839
by Ankha
It could be easily extended to the press provided by the Trap (a press not provided by either combatant).
Replied by Ankha on topic Trap rewording
It is already defined for damage in the rulings: "Damage from other effects is considered "environmental," and has no particular source."What is an environmental press? A press without a source or recipient? Without explanation, this is likely not a good idea to add to the card. I would strongly suggest defining the concept first, then add it to cards.
It could be easily extended to the press provided by the Trap (a press not provided by either combatant).
No it can't. You don't create counters, you burn them and put them back.As for "put back all counters that were burned this way on this card," this could potentially be interpreted as put back more than 3 counters, if more than 3 were burned during the combat (ie, people will wonder if the number of counters burned are cumulative). Hence why I was suggesting "not to exceed 3 counters."
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09 Aug 2018 14:02 #89840
by self biased
this is better than the previous versions.
I think it comes down to the fact that while trap counting down certainly provides a much better visualization of how many more rounds are getting presses, doing so requires wording and templating that makes how trap resets not as clear as we'd probably like.
A template that counts up similar to the one i suggested doesn't do a great job helping visualize how many presses are remaining, but is easier to word and template the reset condition. Honestly its a toss up. I prefer the clearer wording over the visualization, but mileage may vary for others.
To that end, perhaps this is a line can be used?
"If a minion plays a card, restore trap to its original three counters."
Replied by self biased on topic Trap rewording
.
What about (changes underlined):
Only usable before range is determined during the first round of combat.
Put this card in play with 3 counters. At the start of the press step of each round this combat, this Trap automatically burns 1 counter from itself to provide 1 environmental press to continue combat (either combatant can press to end combat). Each time a card is played this combat, put back all counters that were burned this way on this card. Burn this card at the end of combat.
I changed "During the press step" to "At the start of the press step" to indicate that the automatic press happens before players can press (which required a ruling before).
this is better than the previous versions.
I think it comes down to the fact that while trap counting down certainly provides a much better visualization of how many more rounds are getting presses, doing so requires wording and templating that makes how trap resets not as clear as we'd probably like.
A template that counts up similar to the one i suggested doesn't do a great job helping visualize how many presses are remaining, but is easier to word and template the reset condition. Honestly its a toss up. I prefer the clearer wording over the visualization, but mileage may vary for others.
To that end, perhaps this is a line can be used?
"If a minion plays a card, restore trap to its original three counters."
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09 Aug 2018 14:23 - 09 Aug 2018 14:24 #89843
by TwoRazorReign
Damage is not the same thing as a press. It's a new concept that is not really needed. I would avoid it unless adding a new definition of "environmental" as it relates to presses somewhere.
I'm not disputing that. I'm saying your proposed re-wording is confusing to those who are not quite clear on the concept of "you don't create counters."
This works. I would add "(if needed)" just in case. When a card says to do something, and you can't do it, that's when I see a lot of new players pause and think "oh, what happens now?"
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Trap rewording
It is already defined for damage in the rulings: "Damage from other effects is considered "environmental," and has no particular source."What is an environmental press? A press without a source or recipient? Without explanation, this is likely not a good idea to add to the card. I would strongly suggest defining the concept first, then add it to cards.
It could be easily extended to the press provided by the Trap (a press not provided by either combatant).
Damage is not the same thing as a press. It's a new concept that is not really needed. I would avoid it unless adding a new definition of "environmental" as it relates to presses somewhere.
No it can't. You don't create counters, you burn them and put them back.As for "put back all counters that were burned this way on this card," this could potentially be interpreted as put back more than 3 counters, if more than 3 were burned during the combat (ie, people will wonder if the number of counters burned are cumulative). Hence why I was suggesting "not to exceed 3 counters."
I'm not disputing that. I'm saying your proposed re-wording is confusing to those who are not quite clear on the concept of "you don't create counters."
"If a minion plays a card, restore trap to its original three counters."
This works. I would add "(if needed)" just in case. When a card says to do something, and you can't do it, that's when I see a lot of new players pause and think "oh, what happens now?"
Last edit: 09 Aug 2018 14:24 by TwoRazorReign.
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09 Aug 2018 15:07 #89844
by kschaefer
To be honest, I think this opens up good design space for other environmental based combat effects that aren't damage.
Replied by kschaefer on topic Trap rewording
It may be good to note somewhere that environmental presses can stack, even though they may not all be used. This is different from the way minion-based presses work. Two Traps provide two environmental presses to continue each round.I like the idea of environmental press.
To be honest, I think this opens up good design space for other environmental based combat effects that aren't damage.
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09 Aug 2018 15:25 #89845
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Trap rewording
Yeah, but it would be the first time such a wording is used... I need to think about it.
"If a minion plays a card, restore trap to its original three counters."
This works. I would add "(if needed)" just in case. When a card says to do something, and you can't do it, that's when I see a lot of new players pause and think "oh, what happens now?"
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