file Trap rewording

09 Aug 2018 16:59 #89849 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Trap rewording
I was giving it some more thought, and I guess the proposed wording is OK. I had thought of the Trap as 'a thing that happened to the opposing vampire' i.e. a situation in which people lie in wait to make a surprise attack. But proposed wording makes Trap seem like an object or place itself that is the Trap, which works.

I still wonder if all this business about counters and trying to make the Trap work as you intend, if it would just be better off being hard errata'ed away like Fame, Misdirection, Pulled Fangs, or Fourth Tradition: Hospitality. Just change the way it works completely...

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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09 Aug 2018 20:42 #89862 by ReverendRevolver
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Trap rewording

LivesByProxy wrote: I was giving it some more thought, and I guess the proposed wording is OK. I had thought of the Trap as 'a thing that happened to the opposing vampire' i.e. a situation in which people lie in wait to make a surprise attack. But proposed wording makes Trap seem like an object or place itself that is the Trap, which works.

I still wonder if all this business about counters and trying to make the Trap work as you intend, if it would just be better off being hard errata'ed away like Fame, Misdirection, Pulled Fangs, or Fourth Tradition: Hospitality. Just change the way it works completely...


No. It doesn't reward torping your own minion, tap out a player, inflict excessive agg with no discipline ...
Just no. It's where it needs to be in function, just not as clear as it could be.

I like the putting back counters bit, but would possibly word it as "return all counters burned this way".
But there are better grammar smiths out there than I.
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10 Aug 2018 09:51 - 10 Aug 2018 10:01 #89876 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Trap rewording

ReverendRevolver wrote: My hypothesis is that native English speakers will get caught up skimming words, which will put them in roughly the same place as people with less grasp on written English who therefore have to put more thought into how something is worded.


I believe you are right. I have noticed a tendency of skimming card text and assuming how a card works based on person's prior experience with other cards.

However, I still don't believe we can fix this tendency with LONGER card text. I think people would be even more likely to skim longer text than they would short one.

TwoRazorReign wrote: What is an environmental press? A press without a source or recipient? Without explanation, this is likely not a good idea to add to the card. I would strongly suggest defining the concept first, then add it to cards.


The question of enviromental press has arisen in my recent games with my Matasuntha deck. The issue is that when minion A uses trap, and minion B uses a card that says "opposing minion cannot use presses" (target vitals, etc). What happens is that the combat will still continue, as its the trap itself that provides the press, not the minion. Here is where the concept of "enviromental press" comes from. Its not yet a valid game term, but it might become one since presses provided by trap are already 'enviromental' in nature. Question has arisen in my local games at least three times this year. Target vitals and trap are both pretty common combat cards...

"If a man wanders into a tiger's domain, it may result in his being devoured.
And so it has."
-- Pisha, VtM:B

Last edit: 10 Aug 2018 10:01 by Bloodartist.

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10 Aug 2018 10:14 #89878 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Trap rewording

Bloodartist wrote:

ReverendRevolver wrote: My hypothesis is that native English speakers will get caught up skimming words, which will put them in roughly the same place as people with less grasp on written English who therefore have to put more thought into how something is worded.


I believe you are right. I have noticed a tendency of skimming card text and assuming how a card works based on person's prior experience with other cards.

However, I still don't believe we can fix this tendency with LONGER card text. I think people would be even more likely to skim longer text than they would short one.


I think this tendency exists only among those who are familiar with how Trap works. Hence they skim the text because of familiarity with the card's effect. The solution there is easy: read the card more closely. Now, for those unfamiliar with how the card works, I highly, highly doubt people will skim the card and assume to know how it functions. These people will read the card very, very closely and will need extremely clear directions, or they will misinterpret what the card is directing them to do. Card text should not be written in short hand for the veteran players, it should be written for those who are not initiated into the game (preferably without a wall of text).

TwoRazorReign wrote: What is an environmental press? A press without a source or recipient? Without explanation, this is likely not a good idea to add to the card. I would strongly suggest defining the concept first, then add it to cards.


The question of enviromental press has arisen in my recent games with my Matasuntha deck. The issue is that when minion A uses trap, and minion B uses a card that says "opposing minion cannot use presses" (sympathetic agony, whistling up the beast, etc). What happens is that the combat will still continue, as its the trap itself that provides the press, not the minion. Here is where the concept of "enviromental press" comes from. Its not yet a valid game term, but it might become one since presses provided by trap are already 'enviromental' in nature. Question has arisen in my local games at least three times this year.


I like the idea of environmental presses. What I don't like is adding a concept on card text that is "not yet a valid game term." Make environmental presses a valid game term, define how they work differently than regular presses, confirm that this definition will work through testing, and then add it to the card text. It's an idea that should be fleshed out before introduction into the game.

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