question-circle Emerald Legionnaire — First Black Chantry Nerf?

09 Oct 2018 13:21 #91075 by Mewcat
Emerald legionnairre is not a fun card. What makes vtes a game worth playing is player interaction. I have little interest in playing solitaire style games of vtes (old anson anarch revolt for example). The power level is really a secondary concern, in as much as a poorly designed card that is weak wouldn't matter.

Why should 1 successful action allow you to put 12 minions in play?

I understand what black chantry was trying to do (make a splash for harbingers) but they made a mistake. Best thing to do is admit it and move on.

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09 Oct 2018 13:25 - 09 Oct 2018 13:31 #91076 by DJHedgehog

Kraus wrote: Emerald Legionnaires are super strong. But, they are not much stronger than Week of Nightmares breed decks. They do practically the same thing - build up and swarm with Str2 Bld2.

I know it isn't a straight forward comparison, nor a fair one at that, but it is 'a' comparison. Both do similar things and require a specific answer to counter them. It still might not be enough.


It's not a comparison at all. The only similarity is a high number of minions. Legionnaires happen much more quickly, don't require drawing a master, and only requires one successful action. Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.

For me there are a couple reasons why the card is so good.

Liquidation is #1. Seriously that card has no reason to exist. It facilitates degenerate decks and has absolutely zero downside. At least infernal pursuit requires you to play combat cards to start to fill your graveyard. Liquidation is not a well designed card and should be examined for a ban.

#2 The Legionnaire is overtuned, it breeds itself and is a "put into play" effect. As if flooding your board with overtuned allies wasn't enough, they can act the turn they come out (2 life, 2 strength, 1 bleed for 1 pool? Show me anything comparable printed at any time ever). The legionnaire is generally overtuned and addressing any part of that would make it more manageable.

#3 Harbingers got better stuff overall. They got other support through cards and vampires that makes them more viable as a clan, which means the whole package can hit harder.

I would consider a nerf for Legionnaires based on the stat line and cost alone. Looking at the whole picture I can't imagine it's not at the very top of the power curve.
Last edit: 09 Oct 2018 13:31 by DJHedgehog.

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09 Oct 2018 13:36 #91078 by Mewcat
@hog

I agree that liquidation is also a problem card, and is certainly one of the primary enablers for solitaire style legionnaire decks. It is hard for me to understand the thought process on design of liquidation. Burn 7 cards in a game where you rarely see the last 30 cards of deck? How is this a disadvantage?

It just pushes the game toward heavy pool damage/bloat and away from other strategies. You were at a disadvantage not playing presence or dominate 10 years ago and the gulf has only grown.

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09 Oct 2018 14:35 - 09 Oct 2018 14:37 #91080 by Bloodartist

TwoRazorReign wrote: So what I'm trying to get at is has anybody actively tried to thwart an Emerald Legionnaire deck (either using Ancilla Empowerment or whatever else works against allies) and failed, or is this thread just a knee-jerk reaction to a powerful card being introduced? In other words, is the card really "broken," or do people just not want to have something new affecting their metagame (for whatever reason)? I'm trying to understand the thinking behind why one would ask for a "nerf" instead of dealing with Emerald Legionnaire actively in-game.


From what I have seen, is basically people refusing to metagame against them, adapt, or adjust their decks. Have vote decks put extra ancilla emp or two in their decks? The answer so far has been no.

DJHedgehog wrote: It's not a comparison at all. The only similarity is a high number of minions. Legionnaires happen much more quickly, don't require drawing a master, and only requires one successful action. Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned.


Lolwut

You are free to showcase us how are you going to cycle your deck sufficiently for legionnaires without actions or masters..

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones
Last edit: 09 Oct 2018 14:37 by Bloodartist.

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09 Oct 2018 14:55 #91081 by Mewcat

Bloodartist wrote: From what I have seen, is basically people refusing to metagame against them, adapt, or adjust their decks. Have vote decks put extra ancilla emp or two in their decks? The answer so far has been no.


I am not certain what information you are using to make this assessment. The amount of counter cards selected for this strategy is staggering.

As always, 'it doesn't always work' is a terrible answer. You can do this or that or have some other card is really weak reasoning. All these rhetorical questions do not scratch the surface of the real question.

Is what this strategy does in line with the rest of the game (i.e. does taking one action allow a massive board build up) and does this promote an enjoyable play experience for all 5 players?

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09 Oct 2018 15:13 #91082 by Malachy
What I am not certain of how do you guys make this assumption, sraight out blaming BCP for this fiasko of a card, pounding chest and state, that this card is badly designed and needs nerf? Are you sure enough time has passed to sit in judgement on this?

I'm not seeing TWDs with this archytpye left and right, only a Lackey picture. Here we haven't met with such imbalance you described. Anytime I saw EL decks, in most cases the table was able to deal with it.

I'm not saying its weak, and I'm pretty sure, if EL slips out of control, the nerf will come (like restriction to one per turn, or they can't act the turn they were put in play), but I find this witch hunt and adjudication a wee bit early.

NC of Hungary

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