SPLIT: Ashur Tablets and Liquidation

skimflux wrote:

I'm surprised everyone is talking about errata or ban and not a single mention so far of what should be the default option: make new cards that counter this combo!

This.

vragozakas wrote:

skimflux wrote:

I'm surprised everyone is talking about errata or ban and not a single mention so far of what should be the default option: make new cards that counter this combo!

This.

Not this.

[P]rovide reasoned counter-arguments that improve the conversation.

From forum guidelines.

Even though a few memetistic one-liner comments can be amusing, please try to add argumentative content to posts to add to the discussion.

Mewcat wrote:

You are missing the point so completely, I would not be possible to do a better job if it was purposeful.

Haha! "You just don't understand the genius-ness in my posts so I'm not going to even try."

Of course I'm missing the point. My previous post basically said I don't understand your posts and the motivation behind them.

I really don't see Ashur's as a problem. I think it is fun to play against those decks, mainly because, in my experience, they can be thwarted. Then again, I don't play in tournaments, so I'll just have to continually miss the points people make about its "problems."

skimflux wrote:

I'm surprised everyone is talking about errata or ban and not a single mention so far of what should be the default option: make new cards that counter this combo!

I had mentioned this exact point on the thread that this was split from, and in another prior thread talking about milling.

Basically, the way to counter milling is to 1) make it part of a loss condition i.e. Brinksmanship; 2) Cards that punish your opponent having a large discard pile ex. Trochomancy; 3) Cards that punish attempts at recursion, whether that recursion is reshuffling cards into your library or returning cards to your hand or playing cards from the ash heap, for example:

Infestation
+1 stealth action Requires or
Put this card into play. Whenever your predator or prey shuffles 1 or more cards from their ash heap back into their library, that Methuselah burns 1 pool.
As above, and whenever your predator or prey shuffles his or her library after searching for a card, that Methuselah burns 1 pool.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Mewcat wrote:

You are missing the point so completely, I would not be possible to do a better job if it was purposeful.

Haha! "You just don't understand the genius-ness in my posts so I'm not going to even try."

Of course I'm missing the point. My previous post basically said I don't understand your posts and the motivation behind them.

I really don't see Ashur's as a problem. I think it is fun to play against those decks, mainly because, in my experience, they can be thwarted. Then again, I don't play in tournaments, so I'll just have to continually miss the points people make about its "problems."

I can't speak for mewcat, but based on our conversations I would say we both agree that winning doesn't really equate to fun. Maybe for some people winning is what makes the game fun, but for me it's about exploring new strategies and vampires and seeing how it all interacts. The game is intricate and the design is as wide as it is deep. The problem, as I see it, that the shallow end of the game is full of stuff making it hard to dig further and there hasn't been a change in that pool in forever.

The biggest problems I keep running into are the strength of cards that have been around for the life of the game. Dominate may be effective but it is boring because it's been doing the same thing for 25 years. The continued (and undying) existence of these cards stifles creativity and the meta never grows because of it. There is always a try-hard at a tournament playing high end stuff to stomp all the less-than-great decks.

That's why you see us constantly swimming up-stream against the majority of players (on VEKN forums anyways) to talk about card balance and bans. I want the meta to shift. I want the things that are powerful to move out of the way for something new and different..

I understand that is an unpopular opinion for the following reasons:
-People don't want their cards to be useless because they paid (sometimes good) money for them.
-People like the game the way it is and those people have kept the game alive over 4 deaths.
-The game experience is subjective so the same problems aren't as clear to everyone playing the game or opinions are widely varied.

All of those are valid.

The frustrating part is any time changes are discussed it becomes a huge argument and even when I approach the conversations trying to see someone's point of view, they ultimately say that I'm a bad player, deck builder, or just want to change the game to my liking. While some or all of those may be true, my discussion points come from a game design/balance/meta perspective.

I think the same is true for mewcat; we get frustrated because we love the game too.