file SPLIT: Ashur Tablets and Liquidation

15 Mar 2019 19:31 - 15 Mar 2019 19:32 #94087 by Kraus

Mewcat wrote: @jraus

Neither really seem appropriate to me. Game should be about vampires taking and blocking actions and other things should support that, not replace it.

Won't both options restore the minion interaction by restricting the Master phase power?

If Ashur tablets could only fetch minion cards (not other Ashurs or Liquidations), MMPA decks would need to resort a bit more to minion actions. Taking away the tutor effect from Ashurs would be a nerf as well. It's not much, but it's something.

Banning Liquidation would rein in the non-minion based bloat.

Both options would then support the importance of minion phase as opposed to master phase, wouldn't they?

I know they're not ideal, but would work towards cranking the game focus to minions instead of masters.

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Last edit: 15 Mar 2019 19:32 by Kraus.
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15 Mar 2019 19:45 #94088 by DJHedgehog

Mewcat wrote: @jraus

Neither really seem appropriate to me. Game should be about vampires taking and blocking actions and other things should support that, not replace it.


Yeah that's my issue as well. I don't think either card is really balanced from a traditional sense.

At what point do you stop playing Ashurs? 2 pool gain? 2 pool and no card to hand? 1 pool? 1 pool and no card to hand? 0 pool? How low would you go to still get this effect?

Recursion shouldn't be as robust as this anyways, but when you add in pool gain and hand management it starts to get silly.

Liquidation, same question. Nobody plays liquid unless they are using it to facilitate a strategy to put cards in the graveyard- so it's already providing that benefit. If it was 2 pool gain would you still play it? Probably. The discard is a benefit where I think it was meant to be a downside.

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15 Mar 2019 20:00 #94089 by LivesByProxy
This may be dreaming and wishing, but what if Ashur's was exactly the same, but an Equipment instead of a Master card?

Other Fragments and Codexes are Equipment. In general, most of the game's artifacts and relics are given the Equipment type.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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15 Mar 2019 20:05 - 15 Mar 2019 20:07 #94090 by TwoRazorReign

Mewcat wrote: [Being required to tap out every turn to pace actionless pool gain is problematic, maybe.


Are your decks allergic to Dominate or something?

Mewcat wrote: Neither really seem appropriate to me. Game should be about vampires taking and blocking actions and other things should support that, not replace it.


The game included Anson in the first ever set released, so the game always had other things replacing minion interactions from the beginning, for better or worse. Ever experience an Anson Anarch Revolt deck in the old days? That archetype was problematic. MMPA + Ashur's + Liquidation is much less so.

This archetype was introduced relatively late (maybe 2008?). My question is: would you rather have had no archetype introduced at that time? Because, introducing an archetype in a 15-year-old CCG took some real creativity back then, and hence Ashur's was introduced to foster something new. I understand you think it's not good for the game, but my opinion is it really was (and is) good for the game because it allowed a new archetype to be introduced relatively late in the game.
Last edit: 15 Mar 2019 20:07 by TwoRazorReign.

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15 Mar 2019 20:35 #94092 by Mewcat

Kraus wrote:

Mewcat wrote: @jraus

Neither really seem appropriate to me. Game should be about vampires taking and blocking actions and other things should support that, not replace it.

Won't both options restore the minion interaction by restricting the Master phase power?

If Ashur tablets could only fetch minion cards (not other Ashurs or Liquidations), MMPA decks would need to resort a bit more to minion actions. Taking away the tutor effect from Ashurs would be a nerf as well. It's not much, but it's something.

Banning Liquidation would rein in the non-minion based bloat.

Both options would then support the importance of minion phase as opposed to master phase, wouldn't they?

I know they're not ideal, but would work towards cranking the game focus to minions instead of masters.


Sorry. I meant that I don't like either card.

I would just get rid of all extra master phases. I know it seems fun but they are only used for evil

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16 Mar 2019 00:33 #94093 by Mewcat

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Mewcat wrote: [Being required to tap out every turn to pace actionless pool gain is problematic, maybe.


Are your decks allergic to Dominate


Maybe I was playing one of the 70% of minions without dominate....

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