file Combat as a strategy

20 Aug 2019 17:01 #96404 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Combat as a strategy
Some more copy paste from nosferatu thread:

"Actually EC final was a good example - 4 combat decks at the table was doing nothing for 2 hours, one non combat deck just dies horribly between tupdogs and Enkidu managing to make like 4 actions during the game. Actually the right way to play for poor Arika player was to not influence any minions and wait for opening. So we will have 5 decks doing nothing and stupidity of the situation will be even more obvious."

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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20 Aug 2019 17:15 - 20 Aug 2019 17:37 #96408 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Combat as a strategy
The truxucan standoff sort of dynamic isn't limited to combat. If u are stealth bleed and prey in weenie auspex you should do nothing and they do nothing and we can just time out. Or dominate no stealth bleed as predator, good idea to just sit there untapped a lot so no one does anything and we time out.
Last edit: 20 Aug 2019 17:37 by Mewcat.

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20 Aug 2019 17:56 #96411 by Oko
Replied by Oko on topic Combat as a strategy

elotar wrote: Some more copy paste from nosferatu thread:

"Actually EC final was a good example - 4 combat decks at the table was doing nothing for 2 hours, one non combat deck just dies horribly between tupdogs and Enkidu managing to make like 4 actions during the game. Actually the right way to play for poor Arika player was to not influence any minions and wait for opening. So we will have 5 decks doing nothing and stupidity of the situation will be even more obvious."


The game suffers.... how exactly?
Explain to us dense plebs, if you will.

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20 Aug 2019 18:31 #96413 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Combat as a strategy

Mewcat wrote: The truxucan standoff sort of dynamic isn't limited to combat. If u are stealth bleed and prey in weenie auspex you should do nothing and they do nothing and we can just time out. Or dominate no stealth bleed as predator, good idea to just sit there untapped a lot so no one does anything and we time out.


If you are stealth bleed and are staying untapped because of wall prey (which is, imo, wrong strategy but whenever) than you will be just killed by your predator having useless stealth cards in hand. It's the same with no stealth powerbleed which has to go forward or it will die as conditioning is not a very good defensive card.

But if you got combat and you neighbors got it, than any move will just weaken two of you giving the third one free reign. So whole table stands off.

As I've already mentioned - the only thing imo which stops combat from total dominance is that at large tournaments you need not only GW but many VP to get to the top 5 and aggressive pool-damage strategies can some times luck out.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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20 Aug 2019 19:22 #96414 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Combat as a strategy
I specifically mean weenie auspex deck type that you are just helping out by bleeding and it would be statistically unlikely that you could luck into an oust. And tapping out to dominate no stealth is just bad. It isn't hard to get into a game state in vtes where doing anything is a bad idea (imo this is stupid but anyway).

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20 Aug 2019 19:25 - 20 Aug 2019 19:49 #96416 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Combat as a strategy

elotar wrote: Main essence of VtES is not a fantasy about vampires, it's a prey-predator relationships. Combat breaks it as you at some moment have to go after your predator or even cross table.

There are countless other problem with combat as it's now, but this one is what really destroys the game.


VTES was made in 1994 as a collectible card game based on the setting of V:tM. The essence of VTES is not really the predator-prey relationship, it's (1) (un)life being dependent on the whims of other powerful vampires (per the essence of the source material), and (2) being entirely random (per the essence of card games).

A Methuselah cross table taking actions at a detriment to themselves (and to the advantage to a third party) just to spite another player while "ruining" the predator-prey dynamic and introducing randomness and uncertainty among who actually garners victory points is precisely the theme that was originally intended to be captured in VTES as a nod to the source material.

Those who followed up with rules for tournaments to mandate that the game has a fair and clear path to victory were and currently are operating under a different philosophy for the game that was present originally. Thus, mechanics of combat may destroy the VTES tournament experience for some, but they do enable thematic consequences originally intended to be included. Those who play the game casually and welcome the game turning on the actions of unruly players acting as spiteful Methuselahs, or stalemates between players acting as stubborn ancient vampires, really do not see a problem.

VTES is a game that originally was trying something new and different which, in my opinion, missed the mark if the idea was to have tournaments with clear paths to victory.
Last edit: 20 Aug 2019 19:49 by TwoRazorReign.
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