file Welcome to Africa

04 Sep 2012 10:20 #35903 by Klaital
Replied by Klaital on topic Welcome to Africa
Izaak, its quite apparent you have vastly different metagame if every deck bleeds for 4+ constantly with 3 caps. I see lot of mid to large cap decks around here, and not really that many weenies. Its also very common strategy for any rush deck to first cripple your predator and then focus on your prey, as you want your prey to weaken his prey before you oust him, so you have less work to do on the second oust, and you generally want your grandpredator to oust your predator, unless your predator is playing some very defensive deck that doesn't go forward much. You usually aim for 3 VP with a rush deck, though getting more is a nice bonus sometimes, but 4 is the max you can usually get, unless the table really falls into your hands, which can happen sometimes, but 3 is what to aim for. So if your predator is really aggressive, you smash him, and let your prey to spend his pool and weaken his prey for a few turns, until you turn around and take out his guys to stop him from finishing the job.

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04 Sep 2012 10:35 - 04 Sep 2012 10:59 #35905 by Ohlmann
Replied by Ohlmann on topic Welcome to Africa
Klaital, may you if possible put a bit more space in yours posts ? It's often next to impossible to read because it's so densely packed.

And your logic is fundamentally flawed in that, especially with a rush deck, your AI will be played nine time out of ten when you are not far from being oust. So what good is removing a vampire when you will be dead on the next action or turn anyway ?

Becuase of the pool cost your life expectancy will not exactly be significantly improved., and because it's an OOT master you will playe one per game at the very most. Except if you play 7+ AI (which is suicidal) or Anthelios.

Edit : corrected a phrase because it was absolutely ununderstandable. Sorry :(
Last edit: 04 Sep 2012 10:59 by Ohlmann.

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04 Sep 2012 10:52 #35906 by Klaital
Replied by Klaital on topic Welcome to Africa
Well with Nana I have two mpas per turn so even after an OoT I can play master on my own turn also, if that was what you meant with the last part. It also goes well together with the whole idea of rush being minion control, I will limit the amount of minions my predator has to bleed me with by dunking some of them, and burning one with AI works well together with that.

With that in mind, I would say rush decks are best ones for using AI, like say you have an AI in hand, so you know you can leave that one guy up for your predator to defend himself with, and if he tries to lunge at you with that, you can blow him up.

The only other decks where I generally use AI are ones that bloat a lot (generally also having multiple MPA) and don't have room for reaction package. For example, I used 3 or 4 AI in my old obf Ventrue deck with Arika and friends, and no reactions, because the deck cycled through cards so fast that reactions would have just jammed my hand, and it bloated so much that if they bleed for less than 4 per action, I don't care.

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04 Sep 2012 11:14 #35908 by Izaak
Replied by Izaak on topic Welcome to Africa

Izaak, its quite apparent you have vastly different metagame if every deck bleeds for 4+ constantly with 3 caps


No?

I'm just responding to Lemminkäinen post who claims that AI can be a viable card in some metagames and I'm just explaining why that isn't true even for the heaviest of heavy bleed environment.

Its also very common strategy for any rush deck to first cripple your predator and then focus on your prey


Yes, that's very common and also very bad. That strategy would work if the game didn't have a clock. Which it has.

Good combat decks nowadays (ie, combat decks that win) play a reaction package that keeps then alive long enough to actually try and oust their prey.

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04 Sep 2012 11:42 - 04 Sep 2012 11:53 #35909 by Lemminkäinen
Replied by Lemminkäinen on topic Welcome to Africa

Izaak wrote: If your metagame is such that you are extremely likely to have a predator that's playing dominate, then you shouldn't be playing a slow, fragile, low-action, big/midcap rush deck like this.

On the contrary, the only environment good for non-multiacting big cap rush is one that features big caps. Big caps tend to oust with fewer actions than weenies meaning that the actions are bigger. Since bleeding is the most common oust mechanism, big cap bleed usually means big bleeds.

Also, if your survival method is "destroy my predator and give my grandpredator an easy oust and try to accompany that with a deal that might give me a VP maybe some time even though I gave my prey a free game" then you need to rethink your deck and maybe even playstyle.

You don't do that mindlessly. You do it when it's the smart thing to do. In other words, you do it when you have a better chance of surviving your grandpredator than you have of surviving your predator.

In some situations you can even tell your predator that "I have an AI in my hand, but I wouldn't want to blow up your IC star (since without him you would be overrun), so please don't bleed with him for more than three".

Trying to keep a super-bleedy predator, whose only defense is bounce, alive to the best of one's ability when you have zero bounce yourself, is not optimal in most situations.

Nah, not really, it does not. People just make you blow your AI on a 3-cap bleeding for 4 and then nuke you relentlessly, knowing you're not likely to play another one soon.

Weenies are easier to block with relatively little resources (and then torporize). Big ones have the blood and the disciplines to avoid that sort of thing. If your strategy relies on two big caps bleeding for lots you really should have a way of landing those bleeds. Meanwhile if your strategy is having seven weenies bleeding for lots, you can miss quite a few bleeds and still oust.

Or people just play their Conditionings at inferior

And this is somehow always bad for you? You've just gotten yourself an extremely potent bleed reducer for the cost of one smaller hand-size. Depending on the situation, it can be a very good thing.

Also note that this comes to my point about affecting the meta. If AI is common, people are reluctant to bleed for lots with their big caps. They might play that Conditioning with inferior, which is awesome, since then they really should be playing Threats (or even Bonding) instead.

Or you just make their predators win if you blow up their Goratrix bleeding for 6.

No, you make your grandpredator get a VP. A big difference.
Last edit: 04 Sep 2012 11:53 by Lemminkäinen.
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04 Sep 2012 12:15 #35912 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Welcome to Africa

Izaak wrote:

Its also very common strategy for any rush deck to first cripple your predator and then focus on your prey


Yes, that's very common and also very bad. That strategy would work if the game didn't have a clock. Which it has.

Good combat decks nowadays (ie, combat decks that win) play a reaction package that keeps then alive long enough to actually try and oust their prey.

Bad? If it's required to survive, I'd call it a good strategy.

I played an Al'Muntaquim multirush in Ropecon this year (~70 players) and got almost to the finals with 2GW+7VP. I don't really think that was badly done. And I most definitely play Archon Investigation. Also, my first thing to do each game is to backrush, basically without exceptions. Every game I haven't done that resulted in me being ousted. And my only reaction card was Delaying Tactics.

I'm not really going to comment on much else, but:

@Only good combat decks are those with a wall aspect to them.
That's pretty harsh. They're most likely (usually) better than those without any reaction package, but saying that it's the only single approach to combat and winning is pushing it. I'd call it short sighted, even.

@Archon Investigation always makes your grand predator win.
This just isn't true! :ohmy: It's weird how some people are so absolute about this! Many combat decks and those without a great reaction module (setites, for example) like it a lot. My predator losing one of his three dominate bleeders doesn't make him lose - far from it. It's still as likely as ever for him to survive, but he can't bleed me as recklessly as he might've done with more minions.

I can kinda see the reasoning behind my predator losing the game if I AI his key minion, for example, but it's not like my Grand Predator is just going to sweep just like that. Even if the AI cripples my Predator, it's not like he'll die instantly. It'll take at least two turns, usually, for him to be ousted, unless he plays very badly. Or if he does die, it has nothing, I'd argue, to do with my AI.

Sorry for interrupting the discussion on the deck itself, but it's just so weird to see people diss Archon Investigation so much, especially with so ultimate opinions. :huh:

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