!Nos Vote n Reduce madness

Azel wrote:

Thanks for the Master Discipline ratio! That's great stuff. I am getting 5 vampires for 2.5, round .5 down, to 2 OBF in my math, though. Maybe I am giving the wrong impression of a more serious vote deck? I am thinking of Kendrick & Cicatriz at least because of CotE cap-size increase & Spying Mission, (and even Shannon with OBF Spying is solid).

Distinct vampires, of which there are three. If you were running a !Brujah with Obfuscate deck, I can see using a different paradigm, but upgrading more than one of your crypt draw is unnecessary.

Azel wrote:

Do you actually see voting potential in this crypt for something more aggressive? I'd trust your opinion on that. I thought I'd be lucky to parley FtP & Bribes for a weird non-PRE vote bloat module experiment.

Basically these are the two main experiments: Oportunistic non-PRE, non-breed, vote bloat, and Big cap obf & aus bleed reduce. A lot of non-bounce clans can access these, as it'd be big caps & basic (often unused spare) disciplines at most. It's exploring how it may free up Master slots from standard Master bloat.

FtP doesn't do meaningful damage and, with Bribes, in every case of my Stunt Cycle/FtP deck, all I did was cause two of us to gain 2 pool and the others to net zero. So, yes, it can bloat, but it does nothing to oust.

The quintessential problem is that nothing in the deck ousts anybody. I'd play that in a casual game because it would like sweep or something, but it's just going to frustrate people when your deck's most vicious action is "gain 2 pool" with one of your three minions in play.

A bleed module wouldn't take up many slots. But, as I said, boring. I know you aren't enthusiastic about KRC, but 8x KRC is, at least, some offense. In theory, bloat can lead to more minions, but I just don't think it's going to happen reliably. Fame/Deep Song is another possibility for some casual offense. Could be extremely grindy with combat, but that's full of problems. If only you were independent, then you could FSR and RA people, both of which actually hurt. Could just use vote to support combat and Templar up to run around and pick off soft targets, but, then, a real combat deck prey becomes hazardous.

The ability to off people with AE/AU and Reins of Power can be something. I had an AE/AU !Nos deck that won some table because I took a bleed action rather than a vote action to kill first prey when I feared Delaying Tactics messing up my victory. AE/AU did soften things up to where trivial bleeding actually mattered.

Ankha wrote:

Azel wrote:

4x Dummy Corporation

Be careful not to rely too much on this card: it's on the watch list because of its power level.

Seriously?

Here is my interpretation of a more vote aggressive variant, fighting against minion advantage, a la ICL recommendations. AIs to outright burn big bleeds, bleed reduce to tempt pushing up to big bleeds. Camera Phones for permanent bleed assist.

The main experiment becomes the big cap bleed reduce package paired with Archon Investigations. !Nos vote aggression and bleed defense with 3 or less expected minions is the challenge.

edit: I get the Master discipline formula now.

Deck Name: !Nos Church is Sick of yer Kids!
Author: Azel
Description: !Nos big cap reduce & anti-spawn vote

Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=3 max=10 avg=6.857143)
==================
2x Kendrick 7 aus obf ANI POT Nosferatu antitribu:2
1x Shannon Price 3 ani obf Nosferatu antitribu:2
2x Yong-Sun (ADV) 10 aus ANI OBF POT THA Nosferatu antitribu:2
2x Aeron 9 aus pro ANI OBF POT Nosferatu antitribu:3
1x Calebos 8 cel ANI OBF POT Nosferatu antitribu:2
2x Christanius Lionel 6 pot ANI OBF Nosferatu antitribu:2
2x Cicatriz 5 ani obf pot Nosferatu antitribu:2

Library: 80 cards

Master (13 cards)
==================
4x Life in the City
2x Archon Investigation
1x Nosferatu Kingdom
1x Obfuscate
1x Black Forest Base
4x Dummy Corporation

Action (1 cards)
==================
1x Conceal

Action Modifier (14 cards)
==================
3x Animal Magnetism
5x Spying Mission
6x Bribes

Action Modifier/Combat (3 cards)
==================
3x Shadow Boxing

Political Action (8 cards)
==================
4x Anarchist Uprising
4x Ancilla Empowerment

Combat (16 cards)
==================
3x Thrown Sewer Lid
5x Aid from Bats
8x Carrion Crows

Equipment (2 cards)
==================
2x Camera Phone

Reaction (23 cards)
==================
1x Fillip
2x On the Qui Vive
4x Rat's Warning
6x Telepathic Counter
3x Cats' Guidance
7x Confusion of the Eye

ICL wrote:

FtP doesn't do meaningful damage and, with Bribes, in every case of my Stunt Cycle/FtP deck, all I did was cause two of us to gain 2 pool and the others to net zero. So, yes, it can bloat, but it does nothing to oust.

The quintessential problem is that nothing in the deck ousts anybody. I'd play that in a casual game because it would like sweep or something, but it's just going to frustrate people when your deck's most vicious action is "gain 2 pool" with one of your three minions in play.

You have discovered my elaborate Art Scam to rule the casual scene! Curses, foiled again!

But seriously, what can we do with this form of vote bloat? Is it solely dependent upon the meta for low titled tables? Work in anti-title style decks into a more robust oust package elsewhere? (e.g. as you mention combat, or AE/AU anti-minion spam, intercept deck, etc.)

You can technically target all but yourself in FtP, which should deliver something, somewhere (perhaps on some weenie or midcap deck), yet the Bribes are focusing on bloat over oust. Maybe there are better "harmless votes" to bloat with, like a small Regaining the Upper Hand & Bribes package? Then it'd be less titles and just a splash of vote push?

There are plenty of votes that do virtually nothing or do something but kind of randomly if all you want is a Bribes target.

Tithings, Tribunal Judgment, Transfer of Power, Disputed Territory (have your own locations to make sure you have targets), Consanguineous Condemnation. Transfer of Power is kind of interesting as a "massive" "bloat" "engine".

There are votes that don't suck that you can still do harmless things with, like Con Boon, where you may end up naming Nagaraja or whatever.

There are votes people might fear even if they suck, like Sabbat Priest, so that's probably the opposite of the aim.

Cardinal Benediction is a way to not bloat Cammies with Bribes and gets you vote power.

There are votes that may be meaningless and may just wreck people accidentally, like Peace Treaty and Kindred Segregation.

There is even a vote that does actually do damage but will be trivial against fattie decks - Neonate Breach. If trying to blow out winnie Animalism or superstar + doofi, an actual threat.

For what you want, I like a massive Transfer of Power build. Just think, if you are somehow ahead of other decks on pool, you are ... losing less.

Don't run Regaining the Upper Hand. It will just get all of your vampires Sens. Depped ...

I still dislike the inferior TC plan. At the point where you play TC at inferior, a card in a discipline that can be cancelled "by accident" those folks trying to stop bounce, can play more esoteric bleed reduction. If trying to find a use for Auspex, well, there are a few inferior plays that aren't awful ... in theory. Nose of the Hound might actually fit the deck, and it's in the not bad camp. Of course, the easiest thing is just run Auspex skill cards and be an impregnable wall of reduction.

Why are you avoiding P: Madrid?