lightbulb EC 2017 - Questions to judges

17 May 2017 06:37 - 05 Sep 2022 17:34 #81875 by Ankha
Ian Forestal
Ian can't play multi-discipline cards if he doesn't have at least one discipline

Going anarch
The cardless action is not subject to NRA.

Erciyes Fragments
You can't discard a political card on the Erciyes to gain a vote during a referendum.

Scalpel Tongue
It can't be played during a Blood Hunt.

Shuffle uncontrolled region vs Brainwash
EDIT: You CAN shuffle your uncontrolled region in order to make other players lose track of the vampires (for instance the one you've just drawn by spending 1 pool and 4 transfers).

Do not replace clause
The DNR clause is not applied when the card is cancelled (eg. Direct Intervention)

Field Training
It can be played on a anarch.

Kholo
Not playable by a non-acting vampire when another of your vampires is acting. (The acting vampire was not of the clan required by the Kholo).

Abactor
Can be used by an empty vampire when they do a mandatory hunt.

Song of Pan
Playing it at 1 pool by mistake is currently legal (was blocked by an Eagle Sight).

Eagle Sight
The prey can't try to block again with Eagle Sight after declining to block.

Jake Washington
If stolen, goes to its owner ash heap when burned.

Yawp Court
Can't be used after the terms have been declared (must be used after the resolution of the action (when it's not blocked), before starting the referendum (and declaring the terms))

Serpent's Numbing Kiss
Psyche! at superior cancels the additional effects that would happen after the combat ends.

Infernal Pursuit
Can't be played by the reacting minion before the acting minion declares their "before range" effects at the start of a combat (unless the acting passes the impulse, of course).

Kine Resources Contested
You can assign more damage to players than they have pool

Art Museum
Can't be used twice a turn with House of Sorrow.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 05 Sep 2022 17:34 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: extrala, D-dennis, PetriWessman

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17 May 2017 06:53 #81876 by PetriWessman
Nice list, and a good reminder / resource for everyone.

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17 May 2017 07:55 #81877 by jamesatzephyr

Shuffle uncontrolled region vs Brainwash
You can't shuffle your uncontrolled region in order to make other players lose track of the vampires (for instance the one you've just drawn by spending 1 pool and 4 transfers).


This is incorrect, or needs to be announced as a reversal.

The uncontrolled region is unordered, and can be freely rearranged. (Which is one of the reasons Nosferatu Hosting is even worse than you think already.) In so far as the cards are indistinguishable because there's nothing distinguishing it from another card (counters, cards on it etc.), you can essentially shuffle them around. Of course, the card that already has the Brainwash on it will still have it on it - but in so far as someone is trying to track your empty Banished Arika or the card you just drew into your uncontrolled region, there's no way of doing that.

(In the situation where you really do need to track a specific vampire who has particular effects applied to them - such as a Banished vampire who has some lingering nastiness, and you want to be sure whether a player is bringing out that one or a fresh duplicate, I recommend a small bit of paper under the sleeve, or similar.)



[LSJ 20060605]

> 2) Is there any prohibition against rearranging the order of vampires in
> the uncontrolled region during play? I am not aware of one, but doing so
> would be detrimental to a player watching specific card in the uncontrolled
> region with the intention of playing a Brainwash.

No.

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17 May 2017 08:36 - 17 May 2017 08:42 #81878 by jamesatzephyr

Song of Pan
Playing it at 1 pool by mistake is currently legal (was blocked by an Eagle Sight).


This is also incorrect or a reversal.

In www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/57938-can-you-oust-yourself-by-accidentally-playing-a-card-with-a-pool-cost-that-would-kill-you?limit=10&start=30#58553, Pascal completely abandoned the idea of players making mistakes when it comes to self ousting. If a card would self oust you, its play is entirely forbidden by that ruling. (Edit: except where you've already won.)

See also the discussion in this thread: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/75087-hostile-takeover?limitstart=0


(I thought the ruling was wrong as it appeared to proceed from Pascal starting from a fundamentally wrong premise, and prevents players from making interesting or risky judgment calls. But that is the rule as it stands.)
Last edit: 17 May 2017 08:42 by jamesatzephyr.

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17 May 2017 08:47 - 17 May 2017 08:48 #81879 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic EC 2017 - Questions to judges
My mistake, there is another ruling that states something that could seem contradictory:

[LSJ 20030908]

The uncontrolled region is to
crypt cards what the hand is to library cards. But cards are tracked in
the uncontrolled region. They are only tracked because of Banishment
(and similar effects that followed the printing of Banishment). Banishment
requires that the cards on the uncontrolled vampire (retainers, equipment,
etc.) remain with the vampire. Therefore, the vampire must be tracked.
Since it is being tracked, other effects (Contract, Blood Bond, etc.)
are also able to track it.


To sum up how both rulings work together:

Let's consider an uncontrolled region containing two Smudge, one of which was chosen for Divine Sign then later banished, and one that has never been in play.

The tracking of which Smudge is which can be done using a piece of paper visible only when the card is face up.
If both Smudge has the same amount of blood on them, or the same cards on them, they are indistinguishable. When one of them comes into play, players know which is which thanks to the piece of paper.

Players are allowed to shuffle their uncontrolled region, the same way as they can shuffle their hand. Both uncontrolled region and hand has no order.

This means you can draw a card from your crypt, then rearrange their order so that other players don't know which was the card drawn.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 17 May 2017 08:48 by Ankha.

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17 May 2017 08:59 #81880 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic EC 2017 - Questions to judges

Song of Pan
Playing it at 1 pool by mistake is currently legal (was blocked by an Eagle Sight).


This is also incorrect or a reversal.

In www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/57938-can-you-oust-yourself-by-accidentally-playing-a-card-with-a-pool-cost-that-would-kill-you?limit=10&start=30#58553, Pascal completely abandoned the idea of players making mistakes when it comes to self ousting. If a card would self oust you, its play is entirely forbidden by that ruling. (Edit: except where you've already won.)

See also the discussion in this thread: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/75087-hostile-takeover?limitstart=0


(I thought the ruling was wrong as it appeared to proceed from Pascal starting from a fundamentally wrong premise, and prevents players from making interesting or risky judgment calls. But that is the rule as it stands.)


This is still under discussion as part of a global reflection about self-ousting, so his ruling should be considered as "pending" until then.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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