file Kindred of the East

04 Sep 2011 05:29 #9557 by Disco_Stu
Replied by Disco_Stu on topic Re: Kindred of the East
Hi everyone,

Many apologies for the delay but the Kindred of the East survey is here!

www.surveymonkey.com/s/LTR8T6X

It's only ten questions long, but some of them are quite involved - it'll probably take up to 10 minutes of your time. Once I receive a sizeable response, I'll publish the results here. I'll be really keen to see how the responses compare to the various drafts of the rules I've created over the years, and which of the various comments and perspectives featured in this thread to date.

cheers all, and thanks in anticipation!

Disco Stu
Prince of Melbourne, Australia

PS. This is the first time I've used SurveyMonkey, so let me know if things don't display correctly.

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04 Sep 2011 06:42 #9560 by hardyrange
Replied by hardyrange on topic Re: Kindred of the East
The survey displayed correctly for me - and I liked the questions...

"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Council Chairman Bochum
The following user(s) said Thank You: Disco_Stu

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08 Sep 2011 16:02 #9768 by name1
Replied by name1 on topic Re: Kindred of the East
I'm glad to see things moving forward. I wanted to point out that some design decisions are better made by deliberation than democracy. For example: my answers to questions 8 and 9 were completely uninformed. Just remember that a camel is a horse designed by committee. ;)
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16 Sep 2011 22:53 #10375 by Disco_Stu
Replied by Disco_Stu on topic Re: Kindred of the East
Hi everyone,

Name1 - I agree with your horse/camel comment! I'm using the survey as an attempt to inform my design, and get a gut feel for how far off from the player base some of my ideas are :)


I now have sufficient responses from the SurveyMonkey quiz that I can share the results.

1. How do you think Kuei-Jin should be represented in VTES?
The overwhelming response was 'as vampires, put into play via the uncontrolled region as per normal'.
Interestingly, a sizeable number of respondents (almost 20%) were keen to see a brand-new minion type instead. This was, for those who have followed my earlier drafts of Kindred the East, the first approach I took to card design so I’m a little chuffed that it got such support.

2. Dharma and Clan
Almost two-thirds of respondents wanted Dharma to be treated as Clan. For those keeping score, this is different from my current design where Dharma is a new (Kuei-Jin-only) trait and Kuei-Jin are technically clanless.

3. Clan Disciplines
This was a very interesting response because the results were so varied. Over a third wanted all=-new Disciplines, but a sizeable population (31%) wanted a mixture of all-new and existing hard-to-find Disciplines.
Whilst I’m conscious of the small sample size of this survey, this result indicates that a mixture of 50% new and 50% existing Disciplines would be broadly accepted by players.

4. Discipline cards
The overwhelming response here was that existing Disciplines would be best treated as ‘outferior’ text, but there was a high proportion of write-in responses that suggested a mixture of outferior, single-Discipline cards and ‘Kuei-Jin only’ limitations could create something for everyone.
Once I reconciled it to myself that this set wasn’t going to see 15-odd new Disciplines in one shot, this mixed approach is one that I personally favour and I was happy to see the survey support it.

5. The P’o
The preference here was for temporary effects that used the Frenzy keyword, although I had a high number of write-in responses once again. The write-in comments pushed the trend slightly more toward semi-permanent archetypes, albeit I was also reminded that there was sufficient unexplored design space to not necessarily require brand-new rules to manage the P’o.
I’ll take this ‘softening’ of the P’o on board. The P’o was a fairly central design piece in earlier drafts, and I was keen to explore how the various P’o archetypes I’d created might create more options for combat decks. That said, I do admit that the rules are a little clunky as is and may require another revision to get the balance right.

6. Rules, themes and keywords
This was an interesting one, in that some respondents seemed to have a ‘one of everything’ approach whilst others were a lot more focused in their response. Broadly, the top five things that people wanted to see were;
* reprinted cards (albeit with comments that this wouldn’t necessarily be the best set to see them in)
* alternative uses for discard phase actions
* cards that affect or target the Research Area
* alternative uses for transfer points
* infernal minions, or cards that affect infernal minions
These five got almost exactly the same response rate, so it’s hard to pick one as the ‘winner’ here.
In terms of how this compared to my current design, I guess I’d point out that KOTE was originally designed in an environment where VTES was in print for the foreseeable future, so reprinted cards clearly didn’t figure too much into my initial design beyond for filling out starter card-lists. The Research Area was only brought into the game after the first couple of sets had been completed, so any Research-based effects don’t pop up for some time - but I can easily shunt some cards into a different release schedule. Infernalism does become a theme by Set 4, where both the Akuma (Baali of the Orient, effectively) and the Scorpion Eaters (a nearly-infernal bloodline) make an appearance.

7. Set size
The answers here were all over the place! ‘61-120 cards’ lead the pack, but it was followed by a strong result from ‘201+ cards’.

8. Number of Dharmas and minions per Dharma
A very interesting result indeed! There was some curious outliers (1-3 minions for 6+ Dharmas, across to 16-20 minions for a single Dharma only). Clustering occurred around 4-5 Dharmas (91%, with the preference on 4 Dharmas), with 9-12 minions for 5 Dharmas, or 13-15 for 4.

9. Crypt groups
There was a very strong preference for two groups only in this initial release. This varies from my current design, which spreads the starting crypt over 3 groups to maximise compatibility with existing crypt spreads. In my mind, later sets would both fill out those 3 groups substantially, whilst also expanding out the group spread. That’s a slightly awkward way of doing things though, so I can certainly understand why people went for two groups only.

10. Interest in playing the set
Over half of respondents would only be keen to play if VEKN approved the set as tournament-legal. The remainder, with only a few exceptions, would be keen to play regardless of any ‘official’ status.
I had an inherently biased pool of respondents here - you first had to have some interest in Kindred of the East to read my posts, then have sufficient motivation to click on the link and get through the survey - but I’m happy with the result regardless.

So, all in all, thanks for the responses everyone!

Cheers
Disco Stu
Prince of Melbourne, Australia


PS.
I’ve been asked a couple of times as to what I think of the upcoming release for VTES. I’d just like to reiterate that, as much of a fan of Kindred of the East as I clearly am, my preference would be toward a Sabbat-themed set. I’ve put my thoughts on that elsewhere in detail, but in essence my approach comes down to this;

* VEKN should find a way to promote the game to new players and ensure that existing players stick around.

* A set that has significant overlap with the design principles we’ve seen so far in VTES would mean existing players are less likely to be scared off.

* Kindred of the East could have great crossover potential for players interested in Eastern mythology (the occasional bit of HAB-slicing-up-demons-with-a-katana artwork wouldn’t hurt, either). But, it’s not a safe bet for VEKN, or at least not until existing players are content with the very concept of non-WOTC/WW/CCP releases. So, whilst I think it’d be a worthy release for 2013, I’m not expecting a phone call anytime soon :P

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19 Apr 2014 16:13 #61298 by Glabro
Replied by Glabro on topic Re: Kindred of the East
Congratulations! It's a very nice idea and plus using well adapted traits showned in the books. I think that it would be released as a mini-expansion first and then, if it works properly, later release as a full expansion. :)

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24 May 2014 08:24 #62733 by Azel
Replied by Azel on topic Re: Kindred of the East
Total delay reaction on this survey; I must have been too engrossed in The Path of Blood back in the day. Just answered the survey before looking at the results, and I was mostly in tune with the rest of the answers. I wish this was a real thing, but perhaps one day, when VTES returns from torpor a second time...

I sort of wish Laibon got better cards for their "Traditions" equivalent to the Camarilla, so my best advice is don't be afraid to mimic powerful cards or explore lateral strategies with some vigor. Note how it took 3 sets before Aanrchs really got into their own, and how Laibon are still struggling (Nana Bukuru excepted, naturally).

I also hope it expands into the other KotE fun, with the Heretical Dharmas (Flames of Rising Phoenix, Face of the Gods, Cerulean Veils, Path of the Inward Tempest, Scorpion Eaters), and the competing courts (Green Courts of Korea, Golden Courts of Indonesia, Thunders Courts of India, Bishamon and Genji of Japan, whatever is left of Mongolia and the Andu).

Maybe one day it will all be realized, as VTES has sort of become oWoD the CCG, (or at least One World by Night the CCG). It's the last CCG I still care about as it never shifted to block sets and is a glorious mess of everything under the sun -- and I wholly love the idea of 20 new disciplines (and 10 dharmas, 5 sects, plus whatever else imaginable) to tack onto the game. We're currently at 92 major category symbols, so what's another 30+ plus among friends! Besides, it's impressive to new players (possibly intimidating, too, but whatever).

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