file Submission: Mastering Puppets

12 Jun 2015 13:06 #71694 by Klaital

Ohlmann wrote: Let's be honest, I use the following grid.

A - is that a dominate card - YES
B - is it not a wallpaper - NO
=> conclusion : it's a bad idea. Change discipline or forget about it. If you want to represent all fluff use of dominate, you will go from "the strongest discipline" to "nobody will ever use a vampire without dominate".

That is rather unhealthy view imo, just because you don't like a discpline you say that it should never get a useful card? Main problem with dominate is how powerful it is with small vampires at only basic level (govern, deflection, conditioning). This card is neither, it is practically useless to small vampires, as you need like 8+ cap to be able to use with any kind of reliability, and on top of that it isn't just dominate card but requires a second discpline also, and both of them at superior to get an effect that you wouldn't be able to get more easily from many other cards (as the basic effect really isn't all that powerful).

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12 Jun 2015 13:47 - 12 Jun 2015 13:49 #71696 by Ohlmann

Klaital wrote: That is rather unhealthy view imo, just because you don't like a discpline you say that it should never get a useful card?

Good thing it's not my view at all.

My view is, DOminate is extremely and strong - and unlike what you say, it's strong on all vampire, for all purpose - so, as long as it don't get significant nerfs, no new dominate card should be usefuL. At best, they can be minor variation on existing card, which that card is not.

I really don't see how you can believe that big cap don't like dominate, but it's dead wrong. A lot of big vampires are distinguished by having dominate, which make them significantly more useful. Eurobrujah and Stanislava are good example for that.

The idea that the inferior is weak is also quite laughable. I mean, it's not world-shattering, but a block deny is not, in fact, a weak effect.
Last edit: 12 Jun 2015 13:49 by Ohlmann.

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12 Jun 2015 13:51 #71697 by jamesatzephyr

Klaital wrote: How does this card address a compelling game need?: As can be seen from the discplines this card uses, it is mostly aimed to help Ventrue with their biggest problem of getting actions through,

That simply says what it does, not why it's addressing a compelling game need. Do the Ventrue need another tool of this kind?

Consider that the Ventrue already have easy access to:

- Seduction , to take out any potential blocker with DOM (which is fairly easy to get)
- The Sleeping Mind , which will screw with any deck that likes to use Wakes, and combined with tapping tech is very solid (e.g. Misdirection)
- The Kiss of Ra , which will take out quite a few troublesome blockers (a lot of Toreador, most of the troublesome Ahrimane, Eurobrujah Princes), though obviously not all (e.g. stickmen, some Animalism based efforts)
- Bonding , which is generally very good indeed
- Dawn Operation , which can discourage a heck of a lot of blocks if you combine it with some Fortitude prevention (I like Dawn Op + Unflinching Persistence, giving you the option to maneuver to close range if you need it)
- Daring the Dawn and Day Operation , which though obviously having downsides, are potentially excellent played at the right time
- Perfect Paragon , which provides a decent mix of pro-vote tech combined with 'stealth'
- Mind Rape to steal your blockers and screw them up (e.g. steal their equipment, take all their blood, use them for diablerie etc.), an action which can be worth using some of your stronger tech on (e.g. throwing down that Daring the Dawn)
- Mind Numb , good as a way of screwing up a deck's assumptions, because the tap now and next turn effect of it is pretty spiffy
- Force of Personality , which can make blocking more expensive while providing S:CE options too
- Approximation of Loyalty , which can either take out a blocker or stop reaction cards being played, and is versatile enough to potentially cover intercept, chump blockers, weenie bouncers, wakes etc.
- Power of One , if you fancy going the route of Anarchs with Presence (which some small-ish Ventrue would be pretty decent at)
- very solid bleed bounce options from Dominate reactions, meaning that your would-be blockers get to use up some of their blocking tech on those bleeds or get to take the bleeds, which isn't quite a win-win for you but it's not bad
- solid untap tech from Freak Drive , meaning that when they can get actions through (e.g. blockers are dead or hand-jammed, their predator and prey have very little blocking tech) the Ventrue deck can probably do a lot of damage in one go
- the extremely powerful Pentex Subversion , which can be excellent for taking out a blocker and then lunging
- Banishment , which is another card that can be worth forcing through in order to take out a key blocker (e.g. Johannes Castelein takes out Howler for a turn or two)
- the very solid Creepshow Casino , which is pretty popular

And a whole of more fringey things e.g. Neutral Guard , which is usable for its outferior in a pinch along with Force of Personality; Archon to make blocking more annoying which could be an amusing, tier 2 bruisey/votey/bleedy deck with a smattering of Dawn Op.

Obfuscate Ventrue already have access to Elder Impersonation too, and being able to take out two blockers with block fails, one tapped would-be blocker with Sleeping Mind, and someone with Seduction is pretty horrifying. Not all of those on every action, of course, but being able to generate that on a few key actions with careful card play would be unpleasant.

Klaital wrote: DOM/PRE: As above, and if the action succeeds, this modifying vampire burns 1 blood to cause the blocking minion to tap and enter combat with a minion controlled by another methuselah (than its controller). In this combat, this vampire has a press, only usable to continue combat. Only one Mastering Puppets at superior can be played each action.

I don't like the effect much at all, but the text needs some clarification. Who is the "this vampire" with a press? The "vampire or minion" the card was played on? Is it intended to be mandatory - if so, better to use the wording from Trap? Blocking minion has a definition, which doesn't include a vampire who failed to block a successful action:
Blocking Minion: The minion currently attempting to block an action, or the minion who has successfully blocked the current action.

On a power level, taking out a blocker for this action and tapping them is really powerful. Elder Impersonation and Call of the Hungry Dead cause failure without tapping, and are generally considered very good indeed. Being able to do it with no blood cost, and potentially doing bad things to to would-be blocker too in combat is quite unpleasant. Additionally, the flexibility to send a combat monster against someone else while being able to send people who are more squishy against someone you control is unpleasant. e.g. I bleed you. Hektor wakes and blocks. My Queen Anne sends Hektor (innate hand damage) to go and play with my predator. Alternatively, you wake and block with someone with no combat skills, so I send him against my vampire who has a gun, which could even be the acting minion.

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12 Jun 2015 14:56 #71699 by Klaital
Yes you are right I fumbled with the wording a bit and it should say 'this minion has a press...' instead of vampire since it can be used on allies too. The wording on the press itself is quite clear though, it doesn't say anything about the press being optional, which by default means it is mandatory, and trap is different, because trap doesn't give the press to the minion, but just give a default press to be in effect in the combat, meaning that either minion would be able to press out. But in this cards case, since the minion affected by this card has the press to continue, they can't use a press to end (since you can't cancel out your own press). Talbot's Chainsaw uses similar wording and the press from that is mandatory also.

But if the current effect is deemed too powerful, there is two things that can be done to tone it down, one is making the superior effect to also tap the modifying vampire as part of the cost to send the target into the combat, and second is adding the Frenzy keyword to the card, so it can be cancelled with various anti-frenzy stuff.

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12 Jun 2015 18:59 #71701 by Nictuku
Dominate does not need more strong cards, but for example Quitus or City Gangrels need some good stuff. I you want to design new cards focus there instead....

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