Submission: Trench Upstart

Kraus wrote:

Would you deem it balanced and interesting enough to warrant play testing?

As written this card seems to function similar to a clan specific Tomb of Rameses III. To which Zillah's Valley basically replaced as a superior card. I considered the possibility of making it an action but then it just becomes another Summon History. Putting a near empty vampire in play just begs a vote + voter cap. Really what you are trying to do is deal with the transfer limitation and it is preventing you from playing large Nosferatu where you don't easily have a way to recoup the cost.

With that in mind, why don't you just do:

Name: Trench Upstart
Cardtype: Master
Cost: X pool
Move X blood from the blood bank to a Nosferatu in your uncontrolled region. You may burn blood from your ready Nosferatu instead of pool to pay the cost of this card.

1) It is clan specific, without requiring specific clan vampire in play.
2) It does not make Golcanda and Voter Cap shenanigans more attractive.
3) It is flexible. You can influence large, small, or even part of a vampire with this card.
4) It allows you to gain an advantage for playing more Nosferatu.
5) It is shorter text and more intuitive.

You are already paying for part of the cost by requiring Nosferatu, using a Master phase and using a card. Why not just allow a one turn, pay for blood for one vampire effect?

Just a thought.

jblacey wrote:

Name: Trench Upstart
Cardtype: Master
Cost: X pool
Move X blood from the blood bank to a Nosferatu in your uncontrolled region. You may burn blood from your ready Nosferatu instead of pool to pay the cost of this card.

I'm not sure it'd survive exactly like this, but I like the mechanic in general terms. What I particularly like about it is that, unlike some of the accelerators that are only really usable in the early game, this has okay-ish late game potential too. With Zillah's Valley, if you draw it late in the game and don't want to bring anyone else out, it's a horrible draw. With this, you could use it as a weakened Minion Tap / Villein, bring pool back via your uncontrolled region. Not totally horrible.

On this card in particular, I'd probably make it Nosferatu Antitribu rather than Nosferatu, because Nosferatu generally do better out of stuff (like being Camarilla, having Princes etc. is just generally sexier), or make it for either of them. Even if it has a clan requirement, I also have mild concerns about the idea of having Nichodemus and Josef Van Buren out (2 cap + 11 cap Inner Circle) for a total of 11 pool at the end of turn 2, or the Sabbat equivalent if it goes a !Nos route, and then you play another and Josef shifts a bunch of his blood to another vampire. Or - with no requirement at all - just going straight to an enormous vampire on turn 1, when you have 1 transfer. But that can probably be worked on.

Thanks for the discussion! Sorry it took some time to reply. Been some hell of a few weeks.

jblacey wrote:

As written this card seems to function similar to a clan specific Tomb of Rameses III. To which Zillah's Valley basically replaced as a superior card.

While it actually doesn't. Zillah's boosts the transfer time of big vampires, and leaves them at full blood. Then you'll need to deal with their blood, and most often you'll Villein back a bunch. Trench Upstart is directly opposite to this - instead of recouping blood back to your pool, you never invest it in the first place, but find ways to FILL your vampires (instead of DEPLETING them).

Putting a near empty vampire in play just begs a vote + voter cap.

Ellison Humbolt and Harrod are the only Nosferatu worthy playing with Presence. If either of them sees more play, more power to them.

Let's be realistic - Nosferatu really need to find other ways to fill their vampires, be it either through combat, hunting techs, Entrentching, Salubri helpers (I'd love to see that deck), Diablerie or Abactor.

Really what you are trying to do is deal with the transfer limitation and it is preventing you from playing large Nosferatu where you don't easily have a way to recoup the cost.

This is exactly it!

With that in mind, why don't you just do:

Name: Trench Upstart
Cardtype: Master
Cost: X pool
Move X blood from the blood bank to a Nosferatu in your uncontrolled region. You may burn blood from your ready Nosferatu instead of pool to pay the cost of this card.

This is NOT a bad idea! I'm just kind of trying to get around the differences in design, but that might be just my own head playing tricks on me.

1) It is clan specific, without requiring specific clan vampire in play.
2) It does not make Golcanda and Voter Cap shenanigans more attractive.
3) It is flexible. You can influence large, small, or even part of a vampire with this card.
4) It allows you to gain an advantage for playing more Nosferatu.
5) It is shorter text and more intuitive.

1) The original was supposed to be free of clan limitations anyways, so you got that part right.
2) Voted Cap is not an issue, and in the original you really can't play Golconda to so much of an effect anyways because of the 'when leaves ready region' clause. So that's basically similar.
3) It is indeed more flexible, and as such probably a bit more powerful!
4) To better or worse. It still might be a good idea.
5) This is not really an issue in either version, I'd say.

This leaves us with the conclusion that we're kind of on the same level of what we're trying to achieve here. What I'd like to add, is that one of the most important design principles here was to make for anti synergies with Villein, as it's by far the best way to recoup cap costs at the moment. It trumps minion tap in almost all cases, and is an addition to every deck, even past Blood Doll.

I gave it some thought, and yes, your version works as a replacement for Villein as well (in a sense). There is still some synergy left with it though, a bit more so than with my version. I don't know yet what to think of that.

It does lack the risk aspect (which is also a part of the flavor) I was aiming for, and as such makes mostly for just power creep for the clan. It still wouldn't push the clan too far, it's true enough. I'm not as enthusiastic about the design as I am of my own version, but you do have points.

@James: I would most definitely not give this to !Nosferatu, since it's the camarilla nossies that would require the love at the moment. My aim is strictly to address Nosferatu problems. Neither Nicodemus, nor Josef are actually problematic. They are simply bad vampires, and any leverage they might get is a good thing.

I'd fiddle with the numbers a bit, as you guys think the original was just a bit bad.

Trench Upstart
Master
1
Attach this card to a Camarilla Nosferatu in your Uncontrolled region. At the end of your next Influence phase, move this vampire to the Ready region, with whatever counters he or she has, and this card. Burn this card and 2 pool if this vampire leaves the Ready region.

Trench Upstart
Master
X
Move X blood from the blood bank to a Camarilla Nosferatu in your uncontrolled region. You may burn blood from one of your ready Nosferatu instead of pool to pay the cost of this card.

I'm hell bent on having this strictly on Camarilla nossies (sorry, Baba Yaga).

Both cards have their merits, and different kind of flavor. Either could be used for Nossies, but I think we all agree that they'd require something like this.

The upper one might become a problem with Golconda if you commit your whole game plan on pumping Josefs up and down (for a net gain of 7 pool per Josef), but... I dunno. In a serious deck you might pull that off twice, thrice tops. You could probably do that in a Lutz deck. Probably.