file Submission: Shadow Court Beastie (Changeling)

09 Nov 2017 17:02 #84178 by jblacey

Okay, so, I think your reasoning for the new, revised design is solid. Focusing more than splattering the effect all over the place is most often a good thing, and it makes for tighter, more balanced and more fun designs.


Thank you.

In prolonged combats (Traps, Mod connections, ANI based off-combat presses, anything of sorts) during a block makes him pretty scary as a bruise bleeder. It's not easy to control his life amount though. That said, for the idea I'll give four golden stars out of five.


Yes, presses are meant to be where you put pain on the opposing character. Though... I am becoming delusioned with the bleeding aspect and considering alteration where pool damage is caused when an opposing minion leaves the ready region. Maybe dropping the intercept for a built in rush ability.

I'm afraid the additional effects you slapped on him might too easily become the main uses for him. A global +1 Intercept is just too strong for a bruise/bleed/management ally you're trying to do, since it'll effectively hamper tool-up and vote decks just as much. And that dedicated blocking kind of goes past Beastie's intent?


I was trying to find a way to slow down the aggression and still remain proactive. The +1 intercept might be too powerful for a combat dedicated ally. I am leaning towards replacing it with a rush ability.

Unmasking and radios make for good ally block fodder as is. If you want to add anything to him, I'd do a more focused approach, as Sabbat is all about different block effects: reflecting Abbot, +1 Intercept against Bleed or (D) actions only?; reflecting Eternal Vigilance, unlock and block by paying a life? That would give him a self-managing ability as well.


Going to think on this... because I have a few ideas that might work. Part of the idea I liked is that players would have to play around the ally, not that the card would be a wall card. He definitely should not stop Kindred Segregation which is one of the ways I imagined this card could be beat.

I think 6 life seems a bit too much to be honest. War Ghoul's the shining star and staple of allies. Be very careful not to exceed it's power level. Not saying you're doing that here, but just be aware of this. Existing power cards should not be creeped past in power level.


War Ghoul is effectively 6 life. 5 base life and 1 prevent in combat. If we change the life gain to occur during the press step, I could see a 5 life.

The regeneration window is a bit weird within consistency, but I understand why you put that to the end of turn instead of unlock phase. If we tinker about the card, it could be at unlock, but then again consistency might not be an issue here. Just mentioning.


What I am thinking is changing the +1 bleed and +1 strength mechanic to +1 life and strength.

The obvious combos with Beastie are self-damaging effects. How many do we have?

Name: Talbot's Chainsaw
[Jyhad:R, VTES:R, CE:R, KoT:R]
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 3 pool
Unique weapon.
Strike: 3 damage. If bearer is ready during your unlock phase, a ready minion you control takes 3 unpreventable damage. Bearer cannot hunt. Bearer may enter combat with a minion controlled by another Methuselah as a +1 stealth (D) action. Bearer gets a press, only usable to continue combat on the first round, and may prevent up to 1 damage each combat.
Artist: Jim Nelson; Tom Wänerstrand

Name: Abyssal Hunter
[BH:R2]
Cardtype: Ally
Clan: Lasombra
Cost: 2 pool
Demon with 4 life. 3 strength, 0 bleed.
Hunter can inflict 1 damage on any minion as a (D) action. During your unlock phase, a ready vampire you control takes 1 damage. Burn the hunter if any ranged aggravated damage is done to him, even if it is prevented.
Artist: Jeff Holt

I'm pretty sure there are others, are there?


It is only damage while in combat that the trigger works on.

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09 Nov 2017 17:10 #84179 by jblacey

Book keeping: I'm not saying add counters, but there has to be something keeping track of it's added strength and bleed. This isn't crimson sentinel or masochism, it triggers the same time in different incriments though, and those both have counters. Allies with non life counters that are good just run pathos counters, and those keep track of how long the dead hookers stats around.


In one design, I used "Rage" counters. I considered "Depravity" counters.

Second, again, it could EASILY bleed for 3-4 the turn after it's recruited. Play it, goes to 7 life during discard phase, it blocks some schmuck (Keith moody, Jao bilr, Jephta hester, Le din tho, you get the idea) and plays trap. The aforementioned schmuck has hands for one three rounds. (In this example, Keith doesn't make it that long, and the others go to torpor unless they prevent alot of times, since Beastie hits one, two, three, for six. If they soak in the middle, they drop round 4 because trap reset, etc)


I am probably going replace the bleed aspect of the card. The card should be more dangerous over time but triggers for +bleed is too much.

This issue is compounded with the free standing intercept. With 1-2 media location, one being channel 10, and an unmasking out, you can conceivably block anyone except block fails and stealth bleed choking on stealth. These cards are reasonable if you're playing an ally deck maximizing efficiency of Beastie.


Intercept mechanic is going to get adjusted. Won't be a flat +1 intercept.

I wasn't detailed in expressing it's too much: your cost is too low for standing intercept once you properly weight life total and price the "hulk" ability as bleed and strength increase with no limit and factor in a regenerate with no ceiling that happens at EoT. I admire the use of a point system, and frankly using it is the simplest way to make a quantitative argument about balance. However, no ally exists with this "hulk out" ability, so the defining detail of the Ally is what makes it not fit cut and dry.


I understand and thank you.

Now, limiting the life and pump takes extra text, and it's almost right, imo. But, as priced and given starting life and Regen, it should only get extra strength from ability, and could maybe burn any amount of life for intercept or up to 2 bleed.
Or reprice, or remove intercept and lower life to a range where it dies easier, since it gains another life before anything can touch it (other than Cogged rush or madness network rush...) It's gotta be more fragile to be able to bleed like an IC member with so little effort, or like lucian the perfect with more effort. Or, put a garou price on it. As is screams unique and still overkill. Adjust away from there. Because you seriously can have tons of these with sabbat weenies and run it like imbued table poison and giggle as everyone wants to beat you with a shoe......


I knew this card was going through some adjustments. That is part of the fun.

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09 Nov 2017 18:00 #84180 by ReverendRevolver
One last quick thing:

I love the mechanic, and even though I think changeling in OwOd is garbage (especially due to nwod changeling being 10billion times better than the core games....) I think your premise works on many levels, from being a changeling and having that synergy, to being "any sabbat" like Abbot. That's why I nitpicked, because I feel you hit a reasonable niche and put a reasonable card idea there.

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09 Nov 2017 18:29 - 09 Nov 2017 18:30 #84181 by jblacey

One last quick thing:

I love the mechanic, and even though I think changeling in OwOd is garbage (especially due to nwod changeling being 10billion times better than the core games....) I think your premise works on many levels, from being a changeling and having that synergy, to being "any sabbat" like Abbot. That's why I nitpicked, because I feel you hit a reasonable niche and put a reasonable card idea there.


Thanks.

One of the reasons Abbot works so well is that it didn't just help out one clan. Abbot filled a hole that multiple Sabbat clans were dealing with. This card is meant to be a combat Ally for Sabbat clans that don't typically get them like Ahrimane, Harbingers of Skulls, or even Kiasyd (who would probably love a non-unique Changeling).
Last edit: 09 Nov 2017 18:30 by jblacey.

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10 Nov 2017 08:41 - 10 Nov 2017 08:52 #84197 by Bloodartist

No, to requiring a discipline. All Shadow Court Changeling should require the sect "Sabbat". Shadow Court Satyr was a mistake, let's not make it worse. VTES has made thematic mistakes multiple times, but this time I am actively trying to avoid that mistake. Example: Wake with Evening's Freshness is a Tremere specific level 1 Thaumaturgy ritual. Meaning the card *should* require Thaumaturgy.

I can't see a reason why they shouldn't have a bleed. Changeling can be wicked smart and vicious peering into the heads of their victims to bring out their horrors and making them real. I could make a strong case for why Beastie, specifically should have :dem: :obf: :pro:.

If you feel that Beastie has access to too many disciplines, then I would rather that the Methuselah that put it into play got to *choose* disciplines. It was meant to be combat cards only so... I feel that the flexibility of the disciplines should be the power of the card.

Also my understanding is that the text referring to life as blood is unnecessary as this has been clarified by the rules.


Two main things that worry me about this card are the ability to play 'any* discipline cards and its non-uniqueness. While I cannot directly point out broken things about this card, I worry that it might easily become the only ally that ally decks would play in large numbers. Ie. it would reduce the number of cards people play by its very existence. This sort of "new card pushes old cards out of contention" thing has happened in Magic the gathering multiple times.

The ability to play any discipline is a very dangerous ability. Because we don't need to take into account only the current cards, but all FUTURE cards as well, to make sure no broken things happen. All future cards involving disciplines would have to be weighted with this card in mind during design. Even as is, I think this ally would be better than most 3-cap vampires in the game due to its ability to play any discipline.

I'm not going to delve into things it 'can' do right now, instead I'm going to make a suggestion that I think would suit the flavor and make it less scary.

The wiki page says that beasties can "mimic most disciplines". This in my mind shouldn't mean that they can play all discipline cards in existence willy-nilly. (I'm also not going to delve into dangers of using a wiki as a source of info. I've written to that wiki myself)

What if, the beastie could use only those disciplines at inferior that other vampires you control have? This could be the mechanical effect of 'mimicking' in my opinion. Beastie would mimic your other vampires.

This would also ensure that no utterly crazy discipline combos can happen, while still allowing plenty of deckbuilding space. It would also allow a way for other decks to hamper the beastie deck by getting rid of the master vampire thats giving beasties their disciplines.

With this restriction I think I could accept the rest of the suggestion. I think I could even reduce the pool cost to 2.

I'm not entirely sure how to word this restriction in a concise and accurate manner on the card however. I'm only on my first cup of coffee during the morning right now.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 10 Nov 2017 08:52 by Bloodartist.

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10 Nov 2017 12:06 #84200 by jblacey
@Bloodartist

I have moved on from that design. I agree with several of your suggestions but decided to go with something a little more standard.

Here is the updated version.

Shadow Court Beastie (Changeling)
:ally:
Cost: 3 :pool:
Requires a Sabbat vampire. Changeling with 5 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed. In combat, the Beastie gains a life and a +1 strength depravity counter at the end of each round, and if the opposing minion leaves the ready region then their controller burns a pool. +1 intercept against (D) actions.
"Grrrr…"

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