file Submission: Greater Purpose

19 Mar 2018 18:01 #85880 by kschaefer

In a combat deck, I wouldn't play Blood Doll (too slow), Vessel (too costly), Villein (one-shot, can't take too much blood or your vampire doesn't have any blood left for combat), or Tribute (not enough minions).


Grooming of the Protege? Can easily bring out weenie assistance or spin up the next combat vamp.

Am I the only one that uses that card? I think it gets overlooked.

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19 Mar 2018 18:01 - 19 Mar 2018 18:05 #85881 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Submission: Greater Purpose

In a combat deck, I wouldn't play Blood Doll (too slow), Vessel (too costly), Villein (one-shot, can't take too much blood or your vampire doesn't have any blood left for combat), or Tribute (not enough minions).
The idea is to give options to some decks that can't bloat at all (at the expense of blood). What was the last time you saw one of the following decks that didn't have a pool problem: a Nosferatu deck that is not a Royalty deck? A Miller deck ? A Renegade Garou deck ?

For sure. I've tried to play midcap combat toolboxes as well, or even pure combat decks, and if you're not playing multirush (and even if you are), Vessels are basically no-go, and blood dolls are just too slow. So they are. Your best bet is usually just trying to rush out enemy offense and then survive on speed and pool from oust.

The thing is - does this card really address that issue that much better?

Nosferatu suck because they have practically no ousting power whatsoever. For that I submitted some "guess card names and do pool damage" half a year ago. Survivability doesn't help you if you have no realistic means of ousting.

We have this one guy here who's super wacky at deck building. He did a CEL deck based on Miller and his friends, based it on Flurry of Action, Majesty, Cel combat, Palla Grande and a decent amount of intercept. But I get your point.

Thing really gave a lot of power to Gangrel and Renegade Garou. They would need survive options, but then again there are stuff they can use already in the card pool.

I think I understand the niche you're trying to fill with the card. In all honesty this is the powerlevel that Villein should've been at (just add trifle) instead of what it is now. All I'm saying is that you're probably not really helping those most in need. Their problems are elsewhere.

But then again, even if midcap toolboxes (tzimisce spring to mind) with bloodgain and block options get some more speed from this here, I wouldn't mind that either.

You're not wrong with this card. And I definitely would not slam the restriction of burning it with votes, since those vote kick decks are few and far between, and far from problematic. More help for them? I'm all for it. Restricting it from titled vamps is a good idea.

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Last edit: 19 Mar 2018 18:05 by Kraus.

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20 Mar 2018 00:20 #85896 by Bloodartist

Nosferatu suck because they have practically no ousting power whatsoever.


16 deep songs, fame? Maybe even army of rats, codex, etc. Nossies have animalism, and I think animalism offers plenty methods for ousting. Not as good as dominate but these methods exist.

I think I'm focusing on nosferatu next.. But I guess the victory conditions will be very similar to my gangrel.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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20 Mar 2018 13:58 - 20 Mar 2018 14:04 #85908 by ReverendRevolver

Nosferatu suck because they have practically no ousting power whatsoever.


16 deep songs, fame? Maybe even army of rats, codex, etc. Nossies have animalism, and I think animalism offers plenty methods for ousting. Not as good as dominate but these methods exist.

I think I'm focusing on nosferatu next.. But I guess the victory conditions will be very similar to my gangrel.


Nos are substantially better equipped to not die than Gangrel, Ditto on winning. Both have builds that splash one of the other clans in clan discipline ( nos with :for: Gangrel with :pot: ) to cover a weakness (Gangrel having an answer to S:CE that isn't a 3 pool retainer, nos prevent damage limited multiact) but fir obvious reasons Nosferatu get better vote capability due no not getting the non-cam treatment for ages, and because protean sucks as a combat discipline for offense since agg poke and spending blood like a drunk vampire mean you can't taste back like you would with punching hard and crows for 2. Obviously both can add dominate, but nos are sitting on a rich history of good cards from cam Ed through going oop, and Gangrel have less of a pool of good cards, and are hindered by protean.


Anyway, this card could be helpful, especially to walls, mid cap animalism, and many shades of sabbat. It's potential to get out of hand is qutite adequately stiffled by it's mandatory 2 only going one way and it's vote n bloat restrictions.

The only 2 archetype that get crazy support are blood brothers and 2 cap sabbat shenanigans (played against such a deck once, as Will Kristoff is the only person I've seen with such a thing)
Basically, legacy of pander aside, blood brothers with harvest rites and slake the thirst become better. Stating that, any time we make a blood brothers strategy other than "walk of Caine with stealth" more viable, it feels like a good thing. Theoretically, blood brothers with Abbot and possibly atonement get help, and fighting builds become more resilient. Hungry coyote and harvest rites make the slake combo reliably generate enough beads to justify 4-5 copy inclusion in a deck, if that feels too out of hand, then add a sub type to this card of "blood doll"(so vessel and vassily can burn it)

(Thematically, it would be good in a sabbat set if we get a physical printing of DM. Cam has too much in game support toward titles, anarchs do not typically exclude barons from stuff, and sabbat have more in line with support for random midcaps (hungry coyote, Abbot, etc) and bloodlines that get the most out of this are either sabbat { :ahri: :bbro: :hosk: !salu! } Or the just eternally support starved gargoyles not named Tupdog.)
Last edit: 20 Mar 2018 14:04 by ReverendRevolver.

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21 Mar 2018 13:05 - 21 Mar 2018 13:13 #85927 by jblacey
Replied by jblacey on topic Submission: Greater Purpose

That could be a concern indeed. But
1/ Blood Dolls are scarce nowadays because of Vessel. Does a deck such as the one you describe with Blood Doll still exist?


Yes, Blood Dolls exist, though they are on life support. They are more common than you might think. One of the biggest reasons is you can get a blood immediately from Blood Doll while you need to wait for Vessel.

Speaking of which I would love to see the window of this card to take blood to change to the unlock phase to match Vessel. That would do more to differentiate this card from Blood Doll than the no vote restriction or the add blood back on ability.

2/ Blood Doll allows you to put back blood on the vampire, which is quite important.


True, but in reality that happens less often unless you underestimate the blood expenditure/drain of the vampire. Maybe I am wierd but there are much more efficient ways to add blood back to vampires than Blood Doll in my experience.
Last edit: 21 Mar 2018 13:13 by jblacey.

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21 Mar 2018 15:06 - 21 Mar 2018 15:14 #85930 by Bloodartist

Maybe I am wierd but there are much more efficient ways to add blood back to vampires than Blood Doll in my experience.


Such as?

edit: There are more 'efficient' ways, but masters that do this tend to be unique and thus risk being contested (adding to the unreliability I talked about earlier) and non-masters tend to be discipline specific (voter captivation for example) or have other limitations (voter captivation requires you to succeed in a referendum by a big margin as an example).
Blood doll and vessel are very reliable. Nobody's going to sudden intervene a vessel..

Gangrel having an answer to S:CE that isn't a 3 pool retainer


Dog pack costs 2 pool, not 3.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 21 Mar 2018 15:14 by Bloodartist.

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