[Card ban idea] List

skimflux wrote:

Actually, the changes to PF and ZP were done in the (in?)famous 7/7 rulings, which were generally done to rebalance the cardpool, at least one of those (PF) explicitly so

Your use of "rebalance" is not the same as the OP's use of "equalize," which was tied overabundance of appearances in the TWDA. In other words, cards that are overused should be banned. Those changes were definitely done to "rebalance" the card pool in terms of card effects. But I'm not sure those changes "equalized" the actual use of those cards.

Then compare this to the RtI ruling, initially changed in the 7/7 rulings, then later banned - the main reason for that change was that it enabled sudden/fast ousts with a huge bleed.

...

Again, RtI would be a better comparison - it was very common in tournament decks before the 7/7 rulings, along Tomb of Ramses III and Thoughts Betrayed. All of these cards were changed despite their popularity at the time.

I think RtI was a lot more polarizing than Govern currently is. Nobody has really ever discussed banning Govern until now. And I'm not sure I see the groundswell of support for banning Govern that seemed to exist with RtI. Now, Pentex, Villein (pre recent change), etc. are a different story and are likely on the level of RtI in terms of polarizing opinions on whether to ban or not.

The 'really good reason' was that it was necessary to rebalance the cardpool. This thread is arguing that by the same criteria these changes are equally justified.

Thank you for resetting the OP's argument. The counter argument i'm making that it's not in fact necessary to ban Govern on the basis of the 7/7 rulings, and hence not justified.

Just chiming in to remind everyone that Android:Netrunner was ahead of the curve: rather than implement a banned list, they created what was known as the "Most Wanted List". Cards on the MWL were suppose to cost an additional influence point (ANR's analogy to The Grouping Rule) because cards that were really good were being splashed too easily out-of-faction.

Maybe VTES could adopt something similar. Create a Most Wanted List and then put cards on it that are "too good" for their current blood / pool cost (e.g. Govern The Unaligned, Deflection, etc). Cards on the MWL cost an additional blood or pool . Instant 'errata' without the need for reprints.

LivesByProxy wrote:

Just chiming in to remind everyone that Android:Netrunner was ahead of the curve: rather than implement a banned list, they created what was known as the 'Most Wanted List'. Cards on the MWL were suppose to cost an additional influence point (ANR's analogy to The Grouping Rule) because cards that were really good were being splashed too easily out-of-faction.

Maybe VTES could adopt something similar. Create a Most Wanted List and then put cards on it that are "too good" for their current blood cost (e.g. Govern The Unaligned). Cards on the MWL cost an additional blood or pool . Instant 'errata' without the need for reprints.

It was scrapped soon though. It was a nice idea, but didn't work. A restricted + banned list was implemented soon afterwards.

It was a cute system, and I enjoyed it at the time, but for dual games like A:NR restricted seemed to work better, ultimately.

@Kraus: That's true, but I think that was a result of the designers 'breaking the game'. They printed cards that upset the core gameplay of hacking servers / defending servers. :/

TwoRazorReign "argument" is invalid.

That said, the effect of Govern isn't flashy, but it's raw efficiency that make it too good to allow the game growing. The same can be said about Deflection, compared to alternatives like Redirection or Murmur and .44 compared to any other gun/weapon/combat permament (although the main culprit here isn't really .44 but concealed weapon). Pentex is just auto-ban worthy.

Side-theme of the discussion is how problematic s:ce timing is. When you are acting, you play cards in blind not knowing if enemy will s:ce or not. It's too late to fix it now, but most s:ce effects should really be visible at the start of combat/round of combat (visible doesn't mean they would resolve!).

Something like:
Majesty as it should be.

1 Blood
Only usable before range is determined.
This vampire may strike: combat ends this round.
As above, but with untap.

Lech wrote:

TwoRazorReign "argument" is invalid.

It's possible. But, I think hell will freeze over before any of the banning or changes you propose here happen. So I think my arguments for not changing them are valid. We'll see...