[Card ban idea] List

DJHedgehog wrote:

I'm still wondering why you're (TwoRazorReign) so adamant to argue on this thread. You've already stated that you aren't interested in playing competitively. If anything changed it would be in the competitive environment. You have no reason to argue except to be contrary.

Because I'm interested in knowing. I haven't really argued anything in my last two posts. I asked a question and stated a fact. The only reason why I was arguing with you before was because I misunderstood what you meant about bringing new players into the game (you meant specifically at the competitive level). I've since stopped arguing with you.

I also respond in these threads because I find the crowd on here super hilarious. I mean, you're accusing me of being contrary, and then basically suggest I should not participate in the discussion. First of all, thanks for your opinion, stranger on the internet. Second, are you really that serious about a card game about vampires that you read a post from someone you are convinced is being contrarian, and then take the time to write a missive directed at that person about a card that contrarian person really wasn't even discussing in the same way? Why exactly do you even respond to my post, other than to call a stranger on the internet contrarian?

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Because I'm interested in knowing. I haven't really argued anything in my last two posts. I asked a question and stated a fact. The only reason why I was arguing with you before was because I misunderstood what you meant about bringing new players into the game (you meant specifically at the competitive level). I've since stopped arguing with you.

You argued that a similar effect existed in Sense-dep. While this may be true, it doesn't align with the discussion which is the power and ubiquity of specific cards.

Pentex is needed because there are such crap as Cesewayo with No Secrets, bowl and countless other cards to shut the predators game.

Pentex is wrong because it itself can shut the predators game if he is playing big cap.

Solution to this may be very different - you (game designer) have to chose a view of the game which he want to reach and possible solutions which he is ready to use to go the.

So you can go with bannings, but then you should ban not only PS, but cards which became problematic if there will be no PS in the pool (like No Secrets).

You can go with errata, but then you have to solve problem of conflicting cards text and other means.

You can try to make big caps less troublesome by changing come into play math or something.

Or you can decide that it's fine to have some cards as a must have, maybe design some deckbuilding rules to make it not so abusable - in my home plays I've experimented with the rule "no contest but only one each unique card in a deck".

elotar wrote:

Pentex is wrong because it itself can shut the predators game if he is playing big cap.

Solution to this may be very different - you (game designer) have to chose a view of the game which he want to reach and possible solutions which he is ready to use to go the.

So you can go with bannings, but then you should ban not only PS, but cards which became problematic if there will be no PS in the pool (like No Secrets).

I totally agree that there are other problem cards. That doesn't mean, to me anyways, that we should let one problem persist because it would uncover other issues.

When looking at cards, I like to ask a simple quesiton: "If this were less effective, would it still be played". If Pentex cost 3 would it still be played? If Pentex only stopped a vampire from acting or blocking, would it still be played? If the action to remove pentex was +1 stealth, would it still be played? If the answer is "yes" to any of these questions, chances are the card is overtuned and needs to be addressed.

You can apply that analysis to any card and it becomes pretty clear where the power level sits.

Lonkka wrote:

LOL.
Would remove the usability in most decks.

No need to, once again, discuss about the removal of a card that stops timeouts and resolves tables.

Why is that so funny? I'd rather see the game focused around Minion Actions than Master cards. And if Minion Actions were more powerful, the game would speed up (avoid timeouts and resolve tables) as I've previously said in this thread.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

LivesByProxy wrote: I think Pentex Subversion would be more acceptable / "fair" if it was an Action that your minions took.

This already exists (Sensory Deprivation).

Sensory Deprivation is obviously a worse Pentex Subversion that tries to reach a compromise by functioning as it does (non-unique, minion action, 3 blood vs 2 pool, can't unlock vs can't act or block, etc. etc.)

I agree with DJ Hedgehog. Cards that are basically an auto-include should not be designed. If we can take a card like Pentex Subversion and make it strictly worse and have it still be playable, it's overtuned / overpowered.

But then, I also agree with Brett Scho when he talks about the necessity of including Villeins, Minion Taps, Blood Dolls, and Vessels . It's not a choice of whether or not you include one or more of those cards, you're basically required to include one or more in order to play the game. And if it's a core part of the game like that, why not write it into the rules?

LivesByProxy wrote:

But then, I also agree with Brett Scho when he talks about the necessity of including Villeins, Minion Taps, Blood Dolls, and Vessels . It's not a choice of whether or not you include one or more of those cards, you're basically required to include one or more in order to play the game.

This statement is provably false. Many decks can be built without these cards and they can win. Even more, some decks would be improved by the removal of these cards, but people are trained to throw so many in, even if it makes the deck worse.