lightbulb Introducing Nictuku and Wights into the game

16 Jul 2018 14:55 - 17 Jul 2018 10:25 #88870 by Ratadin
The idea is to introduce both the Nictuku clan and to also try to represent the lack of humanity (usually meaning losing control of themselves and turning into Wight). I am aware that this cards aren't properly balanced, but I was trying to start a conversation about how could VTES represent properly the Nictuku (or if it made any sense to do so in vampire/clan form), and how could it represent the lost of humanity/path and turning into a Wight.

All these are very violent creatures, with some having killing nosferatus as their sole purpose, while the others cannot do anything else but to kill. As such, I though that giving them combat-related abilities, high Strength bonuses, and bonuses for both diablerie and burning vampires, it could fit their theme. On the other hand, burning vampires isn't always fun (for the rest of the players), so I would like to see how could this be limited (maybe the beast trait could cost you 1 pool every round, or cost pool to be able to ignore blood hunts).

EDIT: I have changed the cards here after feedback, and deleted Absimiliard. I agree it is not logical to have antediluvians in the game.

Blood Related: The vampire with this trait is considered to be part of the specified clans (besides their own clan) when resolving card effects, but not for fulfilling requisites.

Beast: This minion cannot take political actions or bleed, and cannot hunt normally. Instead, this vampire can steal 1 blood from another vampire as a (D) action.

Vasilisa
Nictuku
Cap 10
:ANI: :POT: :CEL: :OBF: :PRE: :aus: :pro:
Independent. Scarce. Blood Related: Nosferatu and Nosferatu Antitribu. Beast. Vasilisa can enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. If he diablerizes a minion from his clan, there is no blood hunt. If he burns a minion, gain 2 pool. +1 Strength. +1 Stealth.

whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vasilisa

The night of the Nictuku
Master Card
2 Pool
Only playable if you don't control any Nosferatu or Nosferatu Antitribu.
Search your crypt for a Nictuku and put it in your uncontrolled region, or move 4 pool from your pool to a Nictuku in your uncontrolled region. Then, if there a ready Nosferatu or Nosferatu Antitribu controlled by another mathuselah, add 2 blood from the blood bank to that Nictuku.

Born with a purpose
Nictuku
Action Modifier/Reaction
Play after this Nictuku burn an opposion minion with capacity 7 or more to gain 1 pool. Play after this Nictuku burn an opposing Nosferatu or Nosferatu Antitribu to gain 3 pool. Only one Born with a purpose can be played each turn.

As a way to validate packing a 10 cap monster that only punch people in the face and that cannot hunt properly, this card allows for some "bloat", while giving purpose to the Nictuku legacy.

Disdain for humanity
Action
Requires a Beast minion.
Deal 1 unpreventable damage to all mortal minion in play and both your prey and predator burn 3 pool. Any minion can attempt to block this action.

This plays into the Beast trait, which could be played both by Nictuku and by other Beast minions. This card represent the very grave problem of having a monster in your domain, and urging other players to shut the beast down in any way possible. Giving every Mathuselah the option to block this plays into the sense that the vampire society dislikes having this kind of creatures nearby.

Killing Instinct
Action
Requires a Beast minion.
(D) This minion enter combat with any minion. In this combat, this minon has +2 Strength and strikes to end combat cannot be played. If the opposing vampire isn't ready at the end of the combat, this vampire can diablerize the opposing vampire. Any vampire can block this action.

An enter combat action that shut down CE (representing that nothing but running very fast will stop this monster from getting you). It is a very strong combat card, but at the same time it requires a complicated minon, and allows for anyone to stop it (making its lack of stealth worse).

Succumbing to the urges
Master out-of turn.
1 pool
Unique.
Playable during your own turn. Play after a vampire diablerizes another vampire, before a blood hunt is called. Cancel the blood hunt and attach this card to the diablerizing minion. This minions is Red List and Beast and gains -1 stealth, +2 strength, cannot block or play action or reaction cards, and must enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. During their controller's unlock phase, inflict 2 unpreventable damage on any other minion that they control, if able.

A card to represent a vampire losing its last shred of humanity and going insane. This can be played both on your minons and on your opponents minons, either to punish diablerie (which doesn't happen very often), or to allow you to build a Beast deck with any minion. It is unique to stop a player from piling up Beasts, or from using this offensively while also using it on their own minions.

Wight
Ally
5 pool
5 Life, 3 Strenght, 0 Bleed
Only playable by a non-camarilla vampire. Beast. Wight must enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. Wight cannot block or play action or reaction cards. At the start of your turn, Wight deals 2 unpreventable damage to another vampire that you control, and you burn 1 pool. While controlled, Wight is considered both a vampire and an ally, and can play cards requiring :POR:, :CEL: and :FOR:.

Toying with the beast
:reaction:
Only playable by a blocking vampire with capacity 9 or more before the resulting combat. Choose a Beast minion you control other than this reaction vampire to cancel combat and make the chosen Beast enter combat with the action minion instead.

Just went all in with the ally thing. A vampire feels too powerful, and doesn't makes much sense, but being a non-vampìre ally doesn't either. I'm torn on this one.

Opinions? Do you think the idea is worth exploring?
Last edit: 17 Jul 2018 10:25 by Ratadin.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 Jul 2018 20:45 #88883 by LivesByProxy
So... I don't want to rain on your parade, as you've obviously put a lot of time and thought into this BUT...

I personally don't think VTES should introduce more clans or clan founders. I think it was a mistake to move away from the Camarilla Seven, and introducing all these minor clans and bloodlines only made it worse. I think introducing the literal Methuselahs into the game was also a mistake (Baba Yaga, The Dracon, Lord Tremere, Sutekh, Saulot, Enkidu, etc.) At this point, it's only a matter of time before they actually introduce Antediluvians and Caine in the game. (Caine will be a cab-driver with all Disciplines, 20 cap, and +10 bleed, of course.)

That said, I actually like the Blood Related idea, but I think it solves a 'problem' that shouldn't have been a problem in the first place: there should have never been so many clans and bloodlines, and the antitribu clans should've never been a thing.

I'm less thrilled about the Beast keyword. I think it's too much rules text to remember.

I also dislike introducing new clans / bloodlines / sects because it means we have to print cards specifically to support them, and only them, which is just lame to me. Not that the cards are *bad* but they fall into that trap.

I like Killing Instinct (Killer Instinct?) and Succumbing to the Urges, minus the Beast keyword. I might would tweak them a bit though.

I don't play Allies, but I've got mixed feelings about the Wight. Having three basic Disciplines is strong, but that drawback though... Ehhhh...

I actually really like the idea behind Vasilisa. I would just make her a Nosferatu Independent who gets +stealth, +intercept, and +strength vs other Nosferatu and !Nos. And then maybe let her rush Nos/!Nos as well. Maybe.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
16 Jul 2018 22:00 - 16 Jul 2018 22:02 #88884 by Ratadin
Thanks for the comment.

First, I actually like bloodlines in this game, as I see deckbuilding as having X tools (disciplines), and then having different ways of mixing them (clans), along with specific tools to help you focus those combinations in one direction on another (clan cards). Just introducing more :PRE: cards, or more prince actions... I mean, it is great, but you need to add new mechanics to the game eventually. Luckily the game still have some room for expanding under-developed themes, but someday something new ought to be released.

I agree on the Antediluvian thing, and I wasn't that sold on creating Absimiliard, but it surely solved a "thematic" problem when it came to what could Nictuku do, and it would set a theme for the bloodline to take them apart from other bloodlines with similar clans (in this case, Osebo).

Beast is indeed to wordy. I tried to go all in when it came to theme (feeding only on vampires, diablerizing all the time, and being extremely aggresive). A different take could be:
Beast: This minion cannot take political actions or bleed, and cannot hunt normally. Instead, this vampire can steal 1 blood from another vampire as a (D) action.
I think the trait should be a problem, but it should allow at the same time for powerful combat minions thanks to that. Changing this, Succumbing to the urges should read as follow:

Succumbing to the urges
Master out-of turn.
1 pool
Unique.
Playable during your own turn. Play after a vampire diablerizes another vampire, before a blood hunt is called. Cancel the blood hunt and attach this card to the diablerizing minion. This minions is Red List and Beast and gains -1 stealth, +2 strength, cannot block or play action or reaction cards, and must enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. During their controller's unlock phase, inflict 2 unpreventable damage on any other minion that they control, if able.

On the Wight, I had exactly the opposite conversation with a friend in the sense that it was too strong (although it was a vampire, not an ally), so maybe I overnerfed it. Maybe it could be changed to this:
Wight
Ally
5 pool
5 Life, 3 Strenght, 0 Bleed
Only playable by a non-camarilla vampire. Beast. Wight must enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. Wight cannot block or play action or reaction cards. At the start of your turn, Wight deals 2 unpreventable damage to another vampire that you control, and you burn 1 pool. While controlled, Wight is considered both a vampire and an ally, and can play cards requiring :POR:, :CEL: and :FOR:.

In this sense, Wight is a powerful minion, but can be stolen like an ally, and burns like an ally. It cannot be used to block, but only to attack other minions, but it cannot do multi-rush. This, on the other hand, gives room for another card.

Toying with the beast
:reaction:
Only playable by a blocking vampire with capacity 9 or more before the resulting combat. Choose a Beast minion you control other than this reaction vampire to cancel combat and make the chosen Beast enter combat with the action minion instead.

This way, you could mix Beast minions with other minions and use them as "bait". This is not a completely efficient way to approach blocking, as you would prefer to block with a combat-able minion and not have to throw cards on every block, but i think it is an interesting and maybe thematic use of a possible "Beast" trait.

And for Vasilisa... Yeah, I agree with you, but I was reluctant on creating another "clan specific" ability, as I feel those are most of the time wasted (unless you are doing some kind of storyline or something). That's the reason why I created the Beast trait as it is, and then added that extra bit for Vasilisa.

So working around not having Absimiliard, it could be like...
Vasilisa
Nictuku
Cap 10
:ANI: :POT: :CEL: :OBF: :PRE: :aus: :pro:
Independent. Scarce. Blood Related: Nosferatu and Nosferatu Antitribu. Beast. Vasilisa can enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. If he diablerizes a minion from his clan, there is no blood hunt. If he burns a minion, gain 2 pool. +1 Strength. +1 Stealth.

Now being a Beast stop him from bleeding or doing political actions, while retaining the combat ability and a clan-related boon against Nosferatu and Nosferatu Antitribu.

And having no Absimiliard around, the night of the nictuku could be...
The night of the Nictuku
Master Card
2 Pool
Only playable if you don't control any Nosferatu or Nosferatu Antitribu.
Search your crypt for a Nictuku and put it in your uncontrolled region, or move 4 pool from your pool to a Nictuku in your uncontrolled region. Then, if there a ready Nosferatu or Nosferatu Antitribu controlled by another mathuselah, add 2 blood from the blood bank to that Nictuku.

This card would speed up any Nictuku deck, while allowing the concept of Nictuku being extremely scarce (as you would probably only have 1 in your crypt). It also plays along the lines of blood related (having at least 1 Nictuku would stop you from being able to play this card), and also add a little punch againt Nosferatu and Nosferatu Antitribu, setting the sense that facing a Nictuku deck while playing a Nosferatu deck is probably a huge problem, although it doesn't mean that the Nictuku deck should punch you directly (they could end up being your ally for most of the game, depending on the seating).

EDIT: Also, I understand that this cards aren't near the level of what a real submission should be, as I have still little understanding of the game. What I actually planned was to start the conversation on "Should these 2 concepts be implemented, and how?", but I felt the need to add some submisions alongside to help any kind of conversation. Feel free to tear down any of these submisions, and add any of your own.
Last edit: 16 Jul 2018 22:02 by Ratadin.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
17 Jul 2018 00:47 #88888 by jblacey

LivesByProxy wrote: At this point, it's only a matter of time before they actually introduce Antediluvians and Caine in the game.

Saulot is an Antediluvian, supposely Caine's favorite and arguably the most powerful one.

To address the thread itself, IMHO adding new base mechanics to support effectively a new bloodline would be a mistake as it would delute focus from adding cards for current clans/bloodlines.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
17 Jul 2018 10:15 #88903 by Brum

jblacey wrote:

LivesByProxy wrote: At this point, it's only a matter of time before they actually introduce Antediluvians and Caine in the game.

Saulot is an Antediluvian, supposely Caine's favorite and arguably the most powerful one.

To address the thread itself, IMHO adding new base mechanics to support effectively a new bloodline would be a mistake as it would delute focus from adding cards for current clans/bloodlines.


I dislike greatly the way bloodlines were set in the card game.
IMO they should assist the main clans and when on their own (mono decks) should be scarce. All of them.
The same way Tremere Antitribu make no sense. Not like they were done by WotC.

Anyway, regarding Saulot.
He was out because of he actually appeared in a very weak state in several Masquerade books. He has been with/in Tremere for over 600 years and finally got out.
So we didn't get Saulot in all his might.

Lorewise, Absimiliard makes no sense. It is impossible to put into card terms, sorry.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
17 Jul 2018 11:29 #88905 by skimflux

Brum wrote:

jblacey wrote:

LivesByProxy wrote: At this point, it's only a matter of time before they actually introduce Antediluvians and Caine in the game.

Saulot is an Antediluvian, supposely Caine's favorite and arguably the most powerful one.

To address the thread itself, IMHO adding new base mechanics to support effectively a new bloodline would be a mistake as it would delute focus from adding cards for current clans/bloodlines.


I dislike greatly the way bloodlines were set in the card game.
IMO they should assist the main clans and when on their own (mono decks) should be scarce. All of them.
The same way Tremere Antitribu make no sense. Not like they were done by WotC.


That was in fact the design objective when bloodlines were introduced (this was discussed during the Bloodlines playtest IIRC). It is why Scarce, Slave, and outferior discipline effects were introduced in that set.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.144 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum