Bunch of Red List vampires

Replying to Jblacey here, not quoting all of that to avoid making this post really long.

Karen. The reason she is not an anarch because being anarch would require her to know what an anarch is, and as noted, she has no knowledge of kindred society, which is also why she has the drawback to not be able to have titles. Though that said, of course nothing stops you from making her an anarch in play, there is certainly plenty of ways to turn vampires to anarchs.

Ayisha: Swapping the abilities around can certainly work, but as for her discplines, there is plenty of other 8 caps in the game with 3 inferior and 3 superior discplines, and they aren't even red list.

Francisca: She is certainly a weird vampire, but the game needs those too, I could at least see someone making an abyssal hunter deck around her as she is immune to the damage the abyssal hunters do to her during the untap phase.

Alex. I actually originally was going to give him a rush, but then I realized he would be way too similar to Enkidu in that case, so thought of something else, and I think you are underestimating how powerful his location stealing ability can be.

Kyoko: You realize those are exact same discplines the base version of Kyoko has, right? With advanced vampires you kind of have to go along with what the base one has. Stealth on non-bleed D actions is pretty limited, it mainly works for rushes, diablerie, and her base versions special hunt action. And there is even examples of 5 caps with +bleed already too, like that !nos who also has OBF PRE.

Raymond: I suppose you could make him antitribu also, doesn't really change much, as long as he stays independent.

Guil: This is kind of similar case to Xaviar advanced, that it shows different side of the character that was very prominent in the rpg but was for some reason left out of the vtes card, as she is at her true nature a diablerist and very cruel and dangerous vampire who hates the camarilla.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

I know nothing about Karen's RPG backstory, but being 7 cap and having FOR PRO cel pot pre" makes me wonder about the decks she'd fit into. Having no Animalism (for compatibility with Country Gangrel) or Obfuscate (for City !Gangrel) makes me wonder how you'd deploy her in a coherent deck. Lots of the vampires she'd be vaguely compatible with have some level of Animalism (obviously common with For/Pro), and being hamstrung around using Carrion Crows and Deep Song would be potentially annoying.

Even if it's not 100% true to her backstory, I'd be tempted to smudge some Animalism in there somewhere.

I think Karen is very interesting, due to her disciplines. You can get around the no-title weakness by having her play Skaald , practically giving her 2 votes. Then she has sup protean for stealth (earth control) and can play inferior forced march to untap. Making her decent pairing in a gangrel vote deck imo as a 7-cap. I noticed she doesn't have a group mentioned, which would obviously determine who she is played with.

I'm really partial to free untaps these days. A new gangrel with celerity almost always catches my interest.

ps. Carlton can't block her
pps. legendary vampire will give her default bleed of 4 and 4 votes with skaald
ppps. Danielle Diron (merged/adv) would be a good pairing in a crypt assuming the groups align, as she also has celerity and 2-3 votes merged. Reckless lets go
pppps. Lets not forget the possibility of infamous insurgent for a free untap and EVEN MORE VOTES B)

Klaital wrote:

Karen. The reason she is not an anarch because being anarch would require her to know what an anarch is, and as noted, she has no knowledge of kindred society, which is also why she has the drawback to not be able to have titles. Though that said, of course nothing stops you from making her an anarch in play, there is certainly plenty of ways to turn vampires to anarchs.

My first thought is that she would always be played with an anarch convert. I know she isn't an anarch in her orginal design, but it seemed a reasonable compromise (and still does). And no being an anarch does not require you to know what an Anarch is, there are several examples that show the exact opposite of your statement is true.

Ayisha: Swapping the abilities around can certainly work, but as for her discplines, there is plenty of other 8 caps in the game with 3 inferior and 3 superior discplines, and they aren't even red list.

8 cap vampire = 8 points.
3 inferior + 3 superior = -9 points.
Red List = +1 point.
6 different disciplines = +1 point.
+1 hand size = -1 point.
+1 bleed (variable) = -1 point.
= 1 point overpowered.

or

8 cap vampire = 8 points
4 inferior + 2 superior = -8 points
Red List = +1 point.
6 different disciplines = +1 point.
+1 Bleed = 1.5 points
+1 hand size (variable) = .5 points.
= 0, which is considered balanced from a points expenditure.

If you wanted overpowered cards currently in print I can give a list, but my suggestion was based on the numbers.

Edit: nm, it is 9 points for an 8 Capacity. I retract my statement that Ayisha is overcosted.

Francisca: She is certainly a weird vampire, but the game needs those too, I could at least see someone making an abyssal hunter deck around her as she is immune to the damage the abyssal hunters do to her during the untap phase.

The game has plenty of wierd vampires that no one ever uses. I have boxes of them. I would rather not waste a crypt slot on another.

Alex. I actually originally was going to give him a rush, but then I realized he would be way too similar to Enkidu in that case, so thought of something else, and I think you are underestimating how powerful his location stealing ability can be.

Don't put them in the same group then. So in the last 10 games of VTES I have seen and exactly 4 locations, all of which were played by me and they were in my intercept wall decks. So yes, I know exactly how bad steal location as a action can be and I know my play group may not be the same as yours.

Look at it this way, you have a choice you can steal a location as a action or enter combat, they both cost the exactly same, which would you rather have with Alex?

Kyoko: You realize those are exact same discplines the base version of Kyoko has, right?

Yes.

With advanced vampires you kind of have to go along with what the base one has.

Not true and there are cards in print that don't match.

Stealth on non-bleed D actions is pretty limited, it mainly works for rushes, diablerie, and her base versions special hunt action.

The fact that you listed three without getting into cards that put repeatable actions on the table makes the argument weakier. Really is the combination of disciplines that pushes it over the top.

There have been games were I said, "thank God, Jost doesn't have Fortitude"... and then I see this vampire.

And there is even examples of 5 caps with +bleed already too, like that !nos who also has OBF PRE.

So how many anarch grinder decks do you think would use this? I am going to go out on a limb and say all of them...

Raymond: I suppose you could make him antitribu also, doesn't really change much, as long as he stays independent.

Thematically it makes more sense and from a game mechanic perspective it means he could play cards like Art of Pain or you could add him into a bruise bleed deck which would give him more synergy.

Guil: This is kind of similar case to Xaviar advanced, that it shows different side of the character that was very prominent in the rpg but was for some reason left out of the vtes card, as she is at her true nature a diablerist and very cruel and dangerous vampire who hates the camarilla.

I love when cards thematically match their table top equivalent, but it would be a mistake to assume because it existed in the tabletop game then it "needs" to exist in the card game.

Let me put it this way... if you can put together a deck that doesn't exist now and this advanced Guil is the star that makes the deck possible, I would be willing to change my opinion. I just don't see this card opening any new doors or pushing any existing archetypes.

Your formula for vampire costing is incorrect, 8 caps by default get 9 points of stuff, not 8.

Klaital wrote:

Your formula for vampire costing is incorrect, 8 caps by default get 9 points of stuff, not 8.

You are correct. I will edit my post.

Don't put them in the same group then. So in the last 10 games of VTES I have seen and exactly 4 locations, all of which were played by me and they were in my intercept wall decks. So yes, I know exactly how bad steal location as a action can be and I know my play group may not be the same as yours.

I find it uncommon to say the least to find a table without any of the following: any hunting ground, any media location, Monastery of Shadows, Papillon, any anarch location.

Stealing a location might not be as universally effective as a rush, but I definitely wouldn't sell the ability short.