file Submission: Intensity

17 Jan 2019 19:38 - 12 Mar 2019 17:57 #92983 by jblacey
Intensity
:reaction:
1 :blood:
Only usable when a bleed against you is successful or a referendum passes that results in the loss of your pool. Play after resolution.
:pot: Lock this vampire to enter combat with the acting minion. If the acting minion leaves the ready region as a result of this combat, gain pool equal to the amount lost.
:POT: As above and unlock this reacting vampire if they are ready at the end of combat.

Quote: "I take my losses from your hide!"

Why?: The goal is create an alternative way for Potence to enter combat that isn't dependent on a using a (D) action backwards or blocking. The idea is that an unlocked :pot: minion should be threatening even without intercept and I wanted a better alternative to Touch of Pain. One of the greatest benefits of this specific card is that it enables other potence cards to be played by starting a combat. From a design perspective this card increases interactivity by setting up a high risk/reward scenario. It doesn't force combat to be close or cause unpreventable damage, but it is easily as threatening. In addition, it plays into a combat rush strategy where board presence helps to stabilize combat decks. Unlike Touch of Pain, this card allows additional card cycling and opportunity to play combat cards.

Source:
Potence 4: Intensity Laws of the Night Revised Edition Pg. 166
The Kindred may bid the Potence and not risk losing any physical traits in challenges of strength.

Update: March 12th 2019

Intensity
:reaction:
1 :blood:
Only usable when a bleed against you is successful. Play after resolution.
:pot: Lock this vampire to enter combat with the acting minion. If the acting minion leaves the ready region as a result of this combat, gain pool equal to the amount lost. The acting minion may burn blood equal to the bleed to cancel this reaction.
:POT: As above, and if this vampire is ready at the end of the first round of combat they gain blood lost by the acting minion.
Last edit: 12 Mar 2019 17:57 by jblacey.

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17 Jan 2019 23:00 #92997 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Submission: Intensity

jblacey wrote: Why?: The goal is create an alternative way for Potence to enter combat that isn't dependent on a using a (D) action backwards or blocking.


Completely outclassing most forms of intercept, and making chump blockers irrelevant, seems a more likely consequence.

jblacey wrote: From a design perspective this card increases interactivity by setting up a high risk/reward scenario. It doesn't force combat to be close or cause unpreventable damage, but it is easily as threatening.


Err, what's the high risk? This is exactly as risky as going into combat with Bum's Rush and getting your action blocked to deny you the maneuver. Potence comes along with all sorts of combat support disciplines - Celerity, Fortitude, Sanguinus etc. - that can pretty much make sure combat is at a range you're happy with (likely close), then prevent S:CE and Dodge (IG), while overriding some of the few options that decks currently employ to avoid that: Secure Haven (not an action), chump blockers to protect a star (not possible unless the star never acts), stealth (to avoid being blocked), Obedience when rushed (not an action) etc. Plus given it gives a rather reliable way to get into combat out-of-turn, it opens up some potentially unpleasant Rotschreck options too, if that's your thing.

I'm not at all sure that allowing Potence IG decks to paper over the few holes that opponents can exploit to survive is really that good an idea. (I'm not saying that Potence decks always win, or would necessarily do so with this. But they would even more ruthlessly be able to take vampires out of action, which doesn't contribute to overall levels of fun. I bleed you for one with Night Moves at +6 stealth, and you can rip my face off, even though I've consciously played a card that goes for +6 stealth to avoid that. Err, yay?

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18 Jan 2019 01:25 - 18 Jan 2019 02:08 #93000 by jblacey
Replied by jblacey on topic Submission: Intensity

jamesatzephyr wrote: Completely outclassing most forms of intercept, and making chump blockers irrelevant, seems a more likely consequence.


You do realize under normal circumstances, this effect only goes backwards. In addition this card is pattern similar to Touch of Pain which is considered by most people as wallpaper?

Err, what's the high risk?


Well unlike blocking, the action is still successful. So you still have to deal with any effect other than the pool loss, no matter the outcome of the combat. In addition, a combat is never a forgone conclusion. If you are unable to dump the acting minion into torpor the card effectively burns a blood for no real effect (maybe cycle a couple cards). I hear damage prevention is thing that can happen. Then there is always a possibility that you fighting another combat deck.

The upside is you are stopping pool loss which is arguably not as good as gaining pool or causing your prey pool loss.

Either way you look at it, this isn't a card that can be played in isolation to stop pool loss like Delaying Tactics or Telepathic Counter.

This is exactly as risky as going into combat with Bum's Rush and getting your action blocked to deny you the maneuver.


No, on actions you can play action modifers and "choose" circumstances to enter combat. In this scenario, your predator is effectively choosing the acting minion and you have to decide whether it is worth blocking the action (risking them cycling stealth and potentially failing the block anyway... Faceless Night at superior being one of the worst outcomes) or if you would risk not blocking to play intensity (for a chance to stop the pool loss).

Potence comes along with all sorts of combat support disciplines - Celerity, Fortitude, Sanguinus etc. - that can pretty much make sure combat is at a range you're happy with (likely close), then prevent S:CE and Dodge (IG)


Not sure I understand your point. It seems like your saying potence is effective at combat which I am not arguing against.

while overriding some of the few options that decks currently employ to avoid that: Secure Haven (not an action), chump blockers to protect a star (not possible unless the star never acts), stealth (to avoid being blocked), Obedience when rushed (not an action) etc. Plus given it gives a rather reliable way to get into combat out-of-turn, it opens up some potentially unpleasant Rotschreck options too, if that's your thing.


Actually, I did have Rotschrek in mind with this card (and Disarm).

Sounds like you are arguing the intensity is too good. Maybe.

Well, my argument is that combat is very card intensive. If I am an intercept deck... the best possible outcome is blocking my prey, not my predator. Intensity would almost always be used by a potence deck to slow down a predator and only triggers off pool loss. So this card in no way replaces the need to block.

The way I was looking at it... the card is closer to a Touch of Pain + a conditional Telepathic Counter.

I'm not at all sure that allowing Potence IG decks to paper over the few holes that opponents can exploit to survive is really that good an idea.


The biggest problem potence decks have is low burst potential and are generally too slow in tournaments. What this card does, is to help alleviate the situation of of a potence rush deck wasting rush actions to go backwards. It is possible that may be too good of an effect.

(I'm not saying that Potence decks always win, or would necessarily do so with this. But they would even more ruthlessly be able to take vampires out of action, which doesn't contribute to overall levels of fun. I bleed you for one with Night Moves at +6 stealth, and you can rip my face off, even though I've consciously played a card that goes for +6 stealth to avoid that. Err, yay?


Heaven forbid people need to put combat cards in their decks in participate in one of the most interactive parts of the game. Not sure how this any worse than Telepathic Counter on Night Moves or using Deflection on a stealth bleed with a Conditioning on it? You know what is worse than having your vampires beat up? Not getting an action to enter combat because your prey played Obedience and your predator played Power Bleed. Speaking of which...

The way I see it if my predator lands a Govern + Conditioning on my potence rush deck... even if I don't die immediately, I am basically done. They just ate one of my vampires in direct pool loss. If I am lucky I can block, otherwise I need something like Archon Investigation. There really isn't a good way for a combat deck to recuperate that pool loss.
Last edit: 18 Jan 2019 02:08 by jblacey.

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18 Jan 2019 13:05 #93012 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Submission: Intensity

jblacey wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote: Completely outclassing most forms of intercept, and making chump blockers irrelevant, seems a more likely consequence.


You do realize under normal circumstances, this effect only goes backwards.


I read the card text, yes.

jblacey wrote: In addition this card is pattern similar to Touch of Pain which is considered by most people as wallpaper?


Touch of Pain does not get you pool back - a crucial problem for many highly combative decks. Touch of Pain does not let you back rush. Touch of Pain does not let you play Disarm. Touch of Pain does at most two damage, for 1 blood, which you can't offset with Taste of Vitae. Touch of Pain does not "save" you an action by, for example, being able to use a Wake as a roundabout form of rush - so a weenie can rush your prey, then "back-rush" your predator with a Wake, without needing an untap discipline (Freak Drive etc.).

I mean, you might as well say that Eyes of the Dead follows a similar pattern to Enhanced Senses because they both give +1 intercept and +2 intercept, if you just ignore all the crucial differences in power between them.




jblacey wrote:

Err, what's the high risk?


Well unlike blocking, the action is still successful.


Since a great many rush decks are not well endowed with intercept to start, this is not a risk - being able to back-rush with the possibility of getting the pool back is actively mitigating
the risk of losing lots of pool quickly.

Sure, a deck with a ton of Second Traditions and other intercept and some Potence might decide that blocking action is a better outcome for them. This card is not only playable by such decks.


jblacey wrote: So you still have to deal with any effect other than the pool loss, no matter the outcome of the combat.


Which you would have to do if the action was just successful against you anyway, which is likely to be the case with a bunch of heavily combative decks that typically lack reliable intercept and/or intercept in any great quantities.

jblacey wrote: In addition, a combat is never a forgone conclusion. If you are unable to dump the acting minion into torpor the card effectively burns a blood for no real effect (maybe cycle a couple cards). I hear damage prevention is thing that can happen. Then there is always a possibility that you fighting another combat deck.


So your card is pretty much exactly as risky as any other rush card on the planet (i.e. not risky).

jblacey wrote:

Potence comes along with all sorts of combat support disciplines - Celerity, Fortitude, Sanguinus etc. - that can pretty much make sure combat is at a range you're happy with (likely close), then prevent S:CE and Dodge (IG)


Not sure I understand your point. It seems like your saying potence is effective at combat which I am not arguing against.


Back up to what you just said:

jblacey wrote: In addition, a combat is never a forgone conclusion. If you are unable to dump the acting minion into torpor the card effectively burns a blood for no real effect (maybe cycle a couple cards). I hear damage prevention is thing that can happen. Then there is always a possibility that you fighting another combat deck.

and combine it with:

jblacey wrote: From a design perspective this card increases interactivity by setting up a high risk/reward scenario. It doesn't force combat to be close or cause unpreventable damage, but it is easily as threatening.


You are arguing that the "high risk" is that the Potence deck isn't guaranteed close range, or given unpreventable damage. But Potence decks face that problem all the time - rushes get blocked so they lose the free maneuver, and the world doesn't end because they have Quick Meld or Flash or Behind You! or a dozen other commonly played cards. They rip through vampires even without unpreventable damage. That is, the "problem" that you posit of not being guaranteed close range and not having unpreventable damage is.... exactly normal.
They face completely standard combat situations like that all the time, and they are equipped to deal with those situations because that is what the deck does. This is in no way a new risk, a high risk, or in fact any sort of risk at all.

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18 Jan 2019 15:09 #93018 by jblacey
Replied by jblacey on topic Submission: Intensity

You are arguing that the "high risk" is that the Potence deck isn't guaranteed close range, or given unpreventable damage.,


Risk is introduced when the outcome isn't certain.

The alternative to Intensity isn't adding more rush; it is blocking or playing cards that better than blocking (Bleed Bounce or Delaying Tactics)

Intensity is strictly worse than blocking, since if you block you take no effects from the action reguardless of the combat. Thus Obedience + Block has a guaranteed result. Intensity is a gamble as is rush, in general. However intercept and blocking can be very passive and is typically low risk. As you pointed out, Obedience basically allows you to ignore an entire section of the game and no amount of punching harder gets past that card. In addition, intercept and unlock are one of the few aspects to the game that is generally available to every vampire and can be easily purchased by any deck with Carlton or numerous other cards cards that can add +intercept/unlock. So it isn't like intercept is a part of the game that is limited in any meaningful way. However if you have ever been on the recieving end of a Kyasid bleed deck, you should know they can easily end combat if blocked before combat begins (as well as completely stop grappling) and you are in the same situation as Obedience... you have dead cards.

This is in no way a new risk, a high risk, or in fact any sort of risk at all.


Is the outcome of Intensity certain? No? then there is risk. If the action is blocked, how likely are you to take the effects of the initial action? I would say unlikely, this would be low risk. If you get in combat with Intensity, how likely are you to drop an opposing minion into torpor or burn? 50/50 or worse depending on how prevalent combat defense is in your environment, whether you have the correct combat cards & amount of damage in your hand, or if you are fighting other combat decks. This is a higher risk and you are guaranteed to have an outcome that is worse than the best outcome of blocking.

The alternative to Intensity isn't adding more rush. Intensity is the potence alternative to Delaying Tactics, Bleed Bounce/Reduction, or adding block specific cards like Carlton. That is the card slot that Intensity would take in a :pot: deck. In fact I think it is likely that Intensity would be a backup to less reliable intercept that doesn't have the backup plan of bounce. For example, lets say I am playing a vampire that has :ani: :pot: or :san: :pot: ... in both of these case they have intercept options but there are few backup options, in case they can't block. Intensity helps in both of those cases.

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18 Jan 2019 20:10 #93019 by jblacey
Replied by jblacey on topic Submission: Intensity
What if it was closer to a "normal" card?.

Intensity
:reaction:
X :blood:
:pot: Gain +X intercept.
:POT: As above and prevent X damage during combat.

The idea is make it the equivalent to an Adrenaline card.

The discipline power "Intensity" in the MET literally allows a character to make a check that is not normally a potence check into a potence check. The superior text on this version is meant to double dip into the blood expendure to allow effectively pre-emptive healing.

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