lightbulb Vehicles

10 Nov 2019 23:13 - 10 Nov 2019 23:17 #97748 by LivesByProxy
Vehicles was created by LivesByProxy

CARDS

Stretch Limousine. Vehicle. Restricted. 3 Pool.
Requires a Camarilla vampire with capacity 8 or more.
The action to equip this vehicle can’t be blocked by non-vampires or younger vampires.
If the equipped vampire is ready and unlocked, they can lock this vehicle to unlock a younger Camarilla vampire as a +X stealth action, where X is the age difference between this acting vampire and any vampire attempting to block. Non-vampires cannot block this action.

Super Yacht. Vehicle. Haven. Restricted. 4 Pool.
Requires a Camarilla vampire with capacity 9 or more.
The vampire with this equipment can lock this vehicle to hunt (+2) as a +3 stealth action. They can perform this action only once per turn.

Armored Transport Truck. Vehicle. Restricted. 3 Pool.
Requires a Camarilla vampire with capacity 7 or more.
If the Armored Transport Truck has no pool on it, the vampire with this vehicle can take a +2 stealth action (undirected) to move up to 3 of your pool to the Armored Transport Truck as blood. If the Armored SUV has 1 or more blood on it at the beginning of your Master Phase, move that blood to your pool. You cannot be ousted while you control the Armored Transport Truck and it has blood on it.

Hijack!
:pot: (D) Steal target Vehicle. This minion gets +1 strength during this action.
:POT: As above, and if this action is successful, deal 1 damage to the minion that had the Vehicle.


RATIONALE

Elotar got me thinking about Vehicles, which seem like an underused, underdeveloped part of the game. Once in a blue-moon someone will play a Helicopter or Sport Bike, but I find it odd that so much of the game happens in the abstract, when there are so many Locations that could be used, and things like Vehicles that ground the game in modern times.

Also, this kind of thing is to support something I would like to see: alternatives to bleeding. If players are playing permanents that cost pool, and those permanents are then stolen or burnt, it is like having been bled for that much pool. But players actually get the feeling of developing their board-state and playing the game. Contrast this sentiment with what happens when someone declares "bleed for 3" or "bleed for 6" - an abstract destruction of resources necessary to play the game, that further diminishes their ability to play the game, and only interacts with that player's cards as a byproduct of the action (unlike D targeting a Location, Minion, or Vehicle in an attempt to steal or burn it.)

Why are these restricted to Camarilla? Because I think it represents the Ivory Tower has having big $$$ and material wealth, in contrast to Sabbat which have their pseudo-religious Rites (also underdeveloped and underused, IMO) and the Anarchs who could / should lean on kine weapons and discipline-less cards, in addition to their specific Anarch cards which require inferior disciplines (a cool, good design IMO.)

Restricted = "A minion can only have one (1) of card sub-type, e.g. Vehicle."

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
Last edit: 10 Nov 2019 23:17 by LivesByProxy. Reason: formatting; spelling

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12 Nov 2019 00:12 - 12 Nov 2019 00:12 #97767 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Vehicles

LivesByProxy wrote: Also, this kind of thing is to support something I would like to see: alternatives to bleeding. If players are playing permanents that cost pool, and those permanents are then stolen or burnt, it is like having been bled for that much pool. But players actually get the feeling of developing their board-state and playing the game. Contrast this sentiment with what happens when someone declares "bleed for 3" or "bleed for 6" - an abstract destruction of resources necessary to play the game, that further diminishes their ability to play the game, and only interacts with that player's cards as a byproduct of the action (unlike D targeting a Location, Minion, or Vehicle in an attempt to steal or burn it.)


That just isn't how V:TES was designed. It's about pool destruction. If you hit zero, that's it, you're done. It doesn't matter how many vehicles you have, how many locations you control, how many expensive retainers you're bringing along. Zero, dead. The design gives the default action to let people bleed, to facilitate that.

If you decide to spaff pool on a yacht and a limo, great! You're now 7 pool down, and 7 pool easier for your predator to oust, who then completely ignores them and bleeds you for 6, untaps, and KRCs you for another 3. Because unless you're planning on removing pool destruction mechanics from the game, other players will still use them, because they're strong ways to win.

If you want a game where you build up a table full of stuff that directly contributes to your survival, and other players have strong incentives to directly manipulate it, there are such games out there. V:TES's core mechanic is about the push-pull of pool manipulation - spending enough to defend yourself and advance your own interests, while not being ousted.

It's like trying to turn chess into a game about capturing territory, rather than mating the king - even though Go exists.
Last edit: 12 Nov 2019 00:12 by jamesatzephyr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kiddo

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12 Nov 2019 13:22 #97785 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Vehicles
It's weird that you don't think spending pool on Vehicles qualifies as "the push-pull of pool manipulation - spending enough to defend yourself and advance your own interests while not being ousted."

The Limo is repeatable Patronage. The Yacht gains your vamp 3 blood with one action. The ATT makes you harder to oust. How do these not qualify as the above?

I'm not suggesting the oust condition be changed, nor am I suggesting bleeding be removed or something...

I think that if BC wants to boost clans that are struggling without just giving them their own +bleed action modifiers a la Conditioning, then incentivizing people to steal and burn Locations, Vehicles, Retainers, Allies, etc, would be one way to do that. But very few of those things are worth the pool investment, let alone trying to steal or burn them, which is why we only see a handful of them. And of course we see the ones that cost no pool the most, because it's just math. No one plays Powerbase: Washington, DC or Powerbase: New York because the math is terrible.

I don't think your Chess analogy is accurate or fair. VTES players do have an incentive to burn / steal Locations, Vehicles, Retainers, Allies, etc. but the incentive to play some +bleed bonuses with some +stealth granting cards is greater, and the present environment and card-pool supports and facilitates the latter, and the latter makes ignoring what your opponents are doing more likely because you're just bypassing all of their cards on the table and going straight for their pool, and it is generally easier to do.

And talking about the way VTES was designed... I mean, was Jyhad well-designed? Was it really? Think about it.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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12 Nov 2019 16:05 #97786 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Vehicles

LivesByProxy wrote: It's weird that you don't think spending pool on Vehicles qualifies as "the push-pull of pool manipulation - spending enough to defend yourself and advance your own interests while not being ousted."

It doesn't. Spending pool on those things is an investment. It may be a good investment or a bad investment depending on table situation, but it is always an investment. You are not forced to spend pool on such things.

VTES players do have an incentive to burn / steal Locations, Vehicles, Retainers, Allies, etc.

The reason why we don't need to burn/steal those things, is because the pool has already been spent. We can just go straight for the ousting actions and ignore those items. The player has already done the damage to themselves by investing into those cards.

Now in my opinion VTES does need alternative win conditions, but burning vehicles, allies and the like isn't it. Doing that doesn't attack the pool unless there is something like tension in the ranks at the table.

Instead you should incentivize burning vehicles by for example introducing vehicles that would have the dummy corporation ability... You could tap and burn them to reduce bleed against their owner in addition to having some other ability. Having such a thing would be decently lucrative and there would be incentive to burn it before you bleed.

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones

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13 Nov 2019 18:01 #97803 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Vehicles
You don't think "spending enough to defend yourself and advance your own interests" qualifies as "an investment"? Like I said, weird...

The goal isn't to incentivize burning / stealing stuff just for the sake of it. The goal is to have targets worth playing for cards like Rewilding (what Arson should have been.)

But obviously, a card like Rewilding is not a win condition centerpiece like Kindred Spirits is. Why? Because the odds of your prey playing more than 1 or 2 Locations is extremely rare in my experience. Maybe you'll see Info Highway, Parthenon, Powerbase: Montreal, The Rack, a Hunting Ground. But that's a big maybe. The opportunity cost of playing more than 2-3 Rewildings is too high IMO.

Because the game just doesn't put any emphasis on playing with Locations, Vehicles, Retainers, etc. Those things are border-line vestigial elements of VTES.

Here:
Vandalize
:action: +1 stealth.
:pot: :obf: (D) Burn target Vehicle or lock target Location. Its controller burns 1 pool.
:POT: :OBF: As above, and if this acting minion is blocked, once during the resulting combat, they can Press: Continue the action as if unblocked. (The opposing minion can Press to negate this effect.)

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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13 Nov 2019 21:17 #97805 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Vehicles

LivesByProxy wrote: Vandalize
:action: +1 stealth.
:pot: :obf: (D) Burn target Vehicle or lock target Location. Its controller burns 1 pool.
:POT: :OBF: As above, and if this acting minion is blocked, once during the resulting combat, they can Press: Continue the action as if unblocked. (The opposing minion can Press to negate this effect.)

I like this one. I would not add a new "press" effect. I would do something more akin to a built-in Shadow Boxing:

:POT: :OBF: As above, and once this action, if minion is blocked, they can burn 1 blood to continue the action if the opposing minion is not ready after combat (if any).

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