file [Submission] !Tremere and Thaumaturgy cards

16 Mar 2020 20:57 #99344 by self biased
using force fields to keep someone from moving sounds like a celerity effect to you? that's why it cancels maneuvers, not provides them. to each their own, i guess.

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17 Mar 2020 10:18 - 17 Mar 2020 10:19 #99345 by LivesByProxy

Ankha wrote:
Infernal Jury
Cardtype: Ally
Clan: Tremere antitribu
Unique demon with 3 life. 0 bleed, 0 strength.
You get +3 votes during referendums.

Relocation
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] Only usable during an undirected action. +2 stealth.


This is terribly disappointing card design. Barely does anything unique or interesting, doesn't explore any new design space, is hardly creative. VTES has the framework to do all of these cool things with it's cards, the core of the game being great, but the card design itself is lackluster and uninspired, and I really think it's one of the reasons this game has faltered in the past.

And cards like yours are part of the problem.

Here, watch me create some new Nosferatu cards:

LivesByProxy wrote:
Nosferatu Action Modifier
:pot: +1 bleed and +1 stealth
:POT: +2 bleed

Nosferatu Ally
Costs 1 Pool. 1 Life, 0 Strength, 1 Bleed.


Aren't those creative? Don't they inspire players to make new decks? Aren't they exploring new and cool design space?

I am being sarcastic, of course. It doesn't. You're just blurring the lines between clans and disciplines. You're making the clans more homogenized. Previously the !Tremere had to work harder than some clans to get actions through, but if your idea of "supporting the creation of new deck ideas and archetypes" is to just let them do what other clans have historically done, I don't see a bright future for this game.

If you're going to give clans similar effects, at least do it in a way that is conditionally distinct; mechanically and thematically representative of the discipline / clan.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
Last edit: 17 Mar 2020 10:19 by LivesByProxy.

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17 Mar 2020 18:05 - 17 Mar 2020 18:06 #99348 by Sambomb
Infernal Jury
Cardtype: Retainer
Clan: Tremere antitribu
Unique demon with 3 life
During a political action, you can burn a blood to get +3 votes during the referendum.

Relocation
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Cost: 1 blood
[tha] +1 stealth, not usable during a bleed action.
[THA] As above, but with +2 stealth.

Forcefield
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Cost: X
Only usable before range is determined, only one forcefield can be played each combat.
[tha] Put x counters in this card, each round you burn a counter to prevent 1 non agravated damage.
[THA] As above, but agravated damage too, when the combat ends you gain 1 blood for each counter in this card.

Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
Last edit: 17 Mar 2020 18:06 by Sambomb.

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17 Mar 2020 19:20 #99349 by Lech

Sambomb wrote: Infernal Jury
Cardtype: Retainer
Clan: Tremere antitribu
Unique demon with 3 life
During a political action, you can burn a blood to get +3 votes during the referendum.


You have no blood. You have pool.
Vampires have blood, allies have life.

Who exactly burn what ?

Sambomb wrote: Relocation
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Cost: 1 blood
[tha] +1 stealth, not usable during a bleed action.
[THA] As above, but with +2 stealth.


Not a fan, but way more fair than initial draft.

Sambomb wrote: Forcefield
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Cost: X
Only usable before range is determined, only one forcefield can be played each combat.
[tha] Put x counters in this card, each round you may burn a the counter to prevent 1 non aggravated damage.
[THA] As above, but aggravated damage too, when the combat ends you gain 1 blood for each counter in this card.


Nice with cost reduction. But overall it's not very good at inferior, superior is better but also it's not giving you any free prevent. Maybe with X+1, or being able to use it twice each turn it could be playable outside aggro-poke protection.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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18 Mar 2020 10:44 - 18 Mar 2020 10:47 #99358 by Ankha

LivesByProxy wrote:

Ankha wrote:
Infernal Jury
Cardtype: Ally
Clan: Tremere antitribu
Unique demon with 3 life. 0 bleed, 0 strength.
You get +3 votes during referendums.

Relocation
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] Only usable during an undirected action. +2 stealth.


This is terribly disappointing card design. Barely does anything unique or interesting, doesn't explore any new design space, is hardly creative.

I disagree. It gives options to !Tremere for political decks. There are some interesting titled vampires:

Malgorzata, Orlando, Ladislath Toth... You can add in some other titled vampires with Thaumaturgy such as Polly Kay Ficher etc.

The stealth is an enabler for calling votes.

LivesByProxy wrote: VTES has the framework to do all of these cool things with it's cards, the core of the game being great, but the card design itself is lackluster and uninspired, and I really think it's one of the reasons this game has faltered in the past.

So you say.

LivesByProxy wrote: And cards like yours are part of the problem.

How my imaginary cards are part of a "real problem"?

LivesByProxy wrote: Here, watch me create some new Nosferatu cards:

LivesByProxy wrote:
Nosferatu Action Modifier
:pot: +1 bleed and +1 stealth
:POT: +2 bleed

Nosferatu Ally
Costs 1 Pool. 1 Life, 0 Strength, 1 Bleed.


Aren't those creative? Don't they inspire players to make new decks? Aren't they exploring new and cool design space?

The ally is definitively not, but you already know it. I don't know how you can in all honesty compare it to my proposal.

I am being sarcastic, of course. It doesn't.

Sarcastic, but just for the sake of it. Made out of bad faith, a criticism isn't constructive.

LivesByProxy wrote: You're just blurring the lines between clans and disciplines. You're making the clans more homogenized. Previously the !Tremere had to work harder than some clans to get actions through, but if your idea of "supporting the creation of new deck ideas and archetypes" is to just let them do what other clans have historically done,


They'll still have to work harder. It's still sub-par to Obfuscate. It just moves the cursor to "nigh unplayable" to "maybe viable, at least doable". This is acceptable IMHO.
Just like Resist Earth't Grasp adds some stealth to Celerity, I still haven't seen a CEL-DOM bleed stealth deck taking over OBF-DOM or OBF-DEM...

If you're going to give clans similar effects, at least do it in a way that is conditionally distinct; mechanically and thematically representative of the discipline / clan.

It is conditionally distinct for the stealth.
As for the ally, giving 3 votes as a unique ally to a clan that doesn't really have access to Presence (contrary to the Ventrue who have the HQ, or the FoS who have Ferraille, or the Lasombra who have a crypt for that) isn't a breaking change. They'll still be inferior in that domain to other decks.

If you're sticking to "Ventrue do political actions", we're already done with all the cards with have. Basically, we don't need any new card.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 18 Mar 2020 10:47 by Ankha.

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18 Mar 2020 11:07 - 18 Mar 2020 11:11 #99359 by Kiddo
When it comes to !Tremere and politics, I don't think that access to votes is the primary problem (at least for g3-4, and mainly thanks to Orlando). The problems are, especially when compared to other Sabbat clans with political aspirations (like Lasombra) is access to stealth (Mirror Walk helps, but is very predictable - max 2 stealth, without counting stealth locations, none of which are clan-based), compromise between political actions and bleed modifiers (which is fair, IMO, but not an issue g2 Lasombras have, due to inherent +bleed abilities (and yes, two !Trem 9-caps have +bleed, but only one, Orlando, is likely to see play) and, for me a biggest issue - lack of truly good political actions which would make me play Sabbat politics instead of Camarilla or even Independent.

I've played a lot of !Tremere political decks but have never ever even considered bringing one to a tournament, because they are outclassed in almost every way by any other decent political deck, and amount of votes is the only issue they don't have.
Last edit: 18 Mar 2020 11:11 by Kiddo.

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