Proxies and the VEKN

Proxies in casual play: Yes, of course. We never had any problem with that over here.
Proxies in tournaments: No, of course not. There are already too many Ashur Tablet-Decks around ;o).

Amenophobis wrote:

You must have missed me stating that according to The Lasombra the sizes of print runs have been continually decreased over the years.

I didn't miss that. It just strikes me as a silly way to go about things.

Arbitrarily (or non arbitrarily) deciding what card can or cannot be proxied seems like a bad way to go about things. Allow proxies or don't allow proxies. Don't allow *some* proxies.

Dreams of the Sphinx is readily available. It was printed in AH, FN, KMW, 3rd and HttB. It's in no way as hard to obtain than e.g. Enkil Cog.
I seem to fail to understand that you cannot see the differences.

I can see the differences that you are pointing to. I simply don't think that they are relevant.

Either proxies are a good idea or proxies aren't a good idea. Saying "Proxies of some cards is a good idea and some aren't, and we'll base which ones are on what you can get in the incredibly random marketplace of e-bay" strikes me as a bad way to go.

Again, for example, I have plenty of Villeins but only a couple Shadow Twins. Why should people be allowed to use proxy Villeins but not Shadow Twins? Why bother limiting the proxies people can use?

Proxies are a crutch. They should be used where necessary. Trading for Dreams of the Sphinx is a magnitude easier than for Enkil Cog. Cards that are readily available don't need to be proxied. VTES is still a TCG, this should not change for the most part.

Then don't allow proxies.

bakija wrote:

Why bother limiting the proxies people can use?

There are pros for proxies and there are cons. Proxies should be allowed in the cases where the pros outweigh the cons. It might not be worth it to devalue the game and discourage future manufacturers by proxying every card in the game but it might be worth it to proxy a limited number of hard to get but highly in demand cards.

Adonai wrote:

Printing proxies violates copyright.

That rules out printing companies but does it apply to noncommercial use?

nc-italy wrote:

As already said by others, allowing proxies in tournament
play would destroy card and game value (albeit non-produced
at the moment, vtes is still a tCCG) and, imho, cut as well
any chanche of having it produced again by some company in the future.

This is my greatest concern. Whilst cards still have perceived monetary value (which, after all, they only do because the community at whole allows it to persist by requiring the physical item to play) there's still a chance of someone, be it CCP, Wizards or anyone else picking up the game and printing it, especially in this era whan Vampires are Cool™ again. Removing that monetary value, and the commercial proposition of printing these cards gets flushed very quickly out to sea.

I'm all in favour of groups of players allowing proxies in their casual, friendly games, because it'd be completely nonsensical to try & take any sort of stance on it (those groups who don't care will proxy regardless of your personal opinion, and those who do care still won't, we generally don't unless it's an exceptional circumstance, usually people trying things like Summon History decks, etc)

If I had to come up with an 'official' rule at gunpoint? I'd allow a player to proxy one card in their deck, as long as it was clearly identified and they had at least one real copy on hand to provide the correct text on demand.

That said, I still wouldn't advocate doing it at really.