file Would You Support/Play a New Game based in WoD w/VTES Roots?

04 Sep 2012 00:45 #35878 by self biased
I am probably extremely late to this party, but i'd like to stir this pot a little. There seems some pretty strong feelings about this game that we all love, and what direction it ought to head in. But first, a little bit about my geek credentials.

I played Vtes sporadically in the late nineties and early 2000, until really getting my feet wet by buying copious amounts of the new Camarilla edition, and I became hellbound to get my hands on as many cards as i could that my playgroup didn't. at the time there was upwards of ten people in the group, but most of them hadn't bought cards since the first lapse in the game after the Sabbat was released. I bought whatever my dishwasher's salary could afford, gorging myself on all these new cards, strange Vampires, and mechanics that most, if not all of the players in the group. I delved into the role of rules junta for a group that had a significant number of house rules and idiosyncrasies.

we're down to four regulars, and about three rare players now, and
nobody has any interest in playing in tournaments or competitive play. I suspect there are a few other colonies of Vtes players in the Albany, NY area, but for the most part it's up to the people i know to spread the word and gather new players.

Is Vtes Dead? so long as there is a community to support the game, it won't be truly dead. you want to go see a dead game? when was the last time you've even heard of someone playing Wyvern? however, with the game not being supported by the powers that be, there are significant hurdles new players face with regards to getting into the game and becoming competitive with their local playgroup's metagame. I handled this by having all the shiny new toys that my playgroup didn't have. I still spent a lot of money on cards (i also managed to amass a considerable Netrunner collection during this period), but there were just certain old cards that were just too rare for me to find until they were reprinted as pack-ins for starter decks. This was a genius idea in my opinion, because as a new player, it gave me access to 'power' cards that my constituents had in their collections that would have been extremely pricey and/or difficult to acquire.

Type 2 & legacy format. While some cards got reprinted, there exists a pleasant duality between many of the cards between the older and newer sets: many cards fulfill similar roles and behave in similar ways as other cards, so a new player isn't outright hamstrung by the weight of the legacy. we do have a limiting factor to our deck construction in the form of Vampire grouping. hypothetically speaking, would it be much of a stretch to assign groupings to library cards? groups don't prevent old cards from being used, they just prevent certain cards from being used with others, thus limiting the pool of cards that can be used, because playtesting how 4000+ cards interact with each other is, to put it mildly challenging. Personally, I like Vampire grouping and the fact that there is some homogeneity in many of the cards so that the basic functions of the cards aren't impeded by the weight of the legacy.

To LCG or CCG? someone brought up the Rolling Thunder release schedule, which was dreamed up by wizards not long after they had acquired L5R (and LBS, i think). Rolling Thunder was a colossal failure for a number of reasons, and was abandoned halfway through the Hidden Emperor story arc, in favor of a more traditional release schedule (and culminated in the 'dark journey home set'). In my opinion, the CCG format lends itself to the type 2 format, which is something people vocally do not want here, and i agree that a type 2 format really isn't the way to go because there is already some redundancy built into the cards.

That leaves the LCG format, which i think is the better way to go. granted, my opinion is biased because my group doesn't mind proxies, and has no aspirations of competitive play. The LCG format would allow veteran players to bolster their collections, and give new players who were willing to split with a buck be on relatively even footing with their constituents.


Tuning the Engine: yeah, there exists some potential for streamlining within Vtes's byzantine ruleset. there are quite a bit of things that have been tacked on to the system over the years, some good, some, not so good. The core game system is brilliant: Pool = Life and Resources, deck limits, minions taking actions, modifiers, reactions, and combat... many of the later expansions add new rules more like a board game would, than a CCG, but the game could probably do with an evaluation of what mechanics are more cumbersome than flavorful, and vice versa.

OWod v. NWoD: I have to admit that i'm rather biased: as much as i had cut my teeth on the Masquerade setting, conceptually i like the Requiem setting better. Masquerade is a Gothic setting: The Barbarians are at the gates! Requiem is a Victorian setting that lends itself far better to political intrigue than Masquerade does: secret societies, knightly orders, &c. a vampire's duty to its clan contrasting and conflicting with its covenant (sect) is pretty powerful. As someone who has been involved with the Mind's Eye Society for the last two years and has been roleplaying in the NWoD, there is great potential for the vtes system with some significant changes (that i may or may not have been pipe dreaming about).

TL;DR: Want the game to be viable once the patents expire? draw in n00bs, and make sure they've got a chance to win and get cards.


i have no ending for this, so i'll take a small bow.

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17 Dec 2012 15:46 #43051 by jamshaman
I would DEFINITELY be interested in VTES as an iphone/ipad app. It MUST be a an LCG, NOT a CCG.

I vowed to never again get in to a CCG. It leads to power gaming, period.

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17 Dec 2012 21:49 #43061 by KevinM

jamshaman wrote: I vowed to never again get in to a CCG. It leads to power gaming, period.

Can you explain your theory, in detail, so that we can understand it? I'm interested.

Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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17 Dec 2012 23:06 #43063 by the1andonlime

jamshaman wrote: I would DEFINITELY be interested in VTES as an iphone/ipad app. It MUST be a an LCG, NOT a CCG.

I vowed to never again get in to a CCG. It leads to power gaming, period.

I too, would like to know where you drew that conclusion from.

Having lived through the "Bob the Maester" and "Ghaston Grey Lock" periods of AGoT, I see more power gaming in AGoT than in VtES. That, and a gaming experience of more than a decade across most genres has shown me that power gaming exists in all games (yes, even cooperative games).

So pray tell, how did you come to your conclusion?


Nathaneal (Y.Y.)
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
domainsg.blogspot.com

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18 Dec 2012 15:55 #43096 by Ashur

jamshaman wrote: I vowed to never again get in to a CCG. It leads to power gaming, period.

Nah. It leads to power gaming if the ones that are in charge like power gaming.

"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

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03 Jul 2013 22:47 #50941 by captrench
I would play a digital CCG OR LCG version of VTES. I loved the game back in the day and still take great pride in my card collection. I wont ever sell it, but its just too time consuming and logistically awkward to deal with all the thousands of cards you end up collecting.

I was never a fan of MTG specifically, but when two digital versions of it came up in Steam I was impressed with the quality of the games, and bought them. My dream would be to have the same for VTES.

I think a digital equivalent of VTES could be a lifesaver for the VTES brand. I've never done any tournaments, but I was lucky to share a house with about 8 other players once, and I wish that number of players was easier to organise in real life than it is.

I can imagine issues with a digital CCG, in terms of spending money to collect digital goods that you never tangibly own, and could still one day disappear for good. But MMORPG's have this exact same risk when a game is closed, taking the fruits of all your effort with it. Its the nature of the beast for anything digital.

I do think a digital CCG is the best option, giving us the same game we all know, but in a format that is much more accessible and practical for most. But an LCG would be an acceptable alternative in my opinion. Given the choice between no more VTES (if its true that its declining, which I find a reasonable assumption)and an LCG, I'd be happy with an LCG also.

That said, I struggle to get the time to use my CCG collection for VTES as it stands. Its been a barrier to play for me for years, and MMORPG's have been much more accessible instead.

Also, I don't think any of the choices listed by the OP are exclusive. I love board games also, and I would love to see a decent adaption of VTM or VTES in this medium. More more more please.

Given how the current setup (logistics of thousands of physical cards) is a barrier to play for me (and maybe others also?), and then factor in the fact that I played MTG for the first time in maybe 15 years simply because it was the only digital(accessible) card game I came across, when I was never even a fan of it... I wonder how many other lapsed players would come back if they had a practical and accessible alternative to the existing physical card set up?

TLDR;
Remember, a digital version is not exclusive of the current version. Players can have both. But a digital version would breathe new life and longevity into the IP, and that can only be a good thing for fans of all types of the IP, whether physical or digital CCG, or LCG.

I would invest in a KS campaign for any of those, because i'm desperate for some of the gameplay I miss.

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