Polishing VtES - refining crypts and removing grouping

thelonius wrote:

Blooded wrote:

Ok, seeing as you have more than 80% of the posts in this thread i will just assume it is masturbation for no reason and ignore

Widely agreeing

Come on, cant a guy have a hobby?

Sometimes I'm wondering what people want to hear in response when they write useless toxic comment?

So Nosferatu

Baba Yaga, the Iro 11 ANI AUS FOR OBF POT THA
Josef von Bauren 11 ANI DEM OBF POT cel inner circle

Alonso Petrodon 10 ANI DOM OBF POT for tha justicar
Cailean 10 ANI OBF POT PRE dom archbishop
Cock Robin 10 ANI OBF POT aus for justicar
Ysador the Foul 10 ANI DEM FOR OBF POT obt cardinal

Aeron 9 ANI OBF POT aus pro archbishop
Ellison Humboldt 9 ANI OBF POT PRE pro primogen
Julio Martinez 9 ANI DOM OBF POT nec bishop
Khalid 9 ANI AUS OBF POT tha primogen

Calebos 8 ANI OBF POT cel bishop
Mateusz Gryzbowsky 8 ANI OBF POT
Selma the Repugnan 8 OBF POT ani for prince
Tarbaby Jack 8 ANI OBF POT dom ser

Beast, The Leather 7 OBF POT ani cel
Greensleeves 7 ANI OBF for pot priscus
Murat 7 OBF POT ser prince
Nikolaus Vermeulen 7 POT ani for obf prince
Rabbat, The Sewer 7 ANI FOR OBF pot
Teresita, The Godm 7 ANI OBF POT for

Harold Tanner 6 POT ani dom obf Nosferatu:4
Humo 6 ANI POT obf obt !Nosferatu:4
Ingram Frizer 6 AUS OBF ani pot !Nosferatu:3
Medic, The 6 OBF POT dem for Nosferatu:5
Ox, Viceroy of the 6 ANI OBF POT !Nosferatu:2
Sundown 6 ANI POT obf pre Nosferatu:3

Amelia, The Blood 5 POT ani obf Nosferatu:3
Calebros, The Mart 5 ANI obf pot prince Nosferatu:2
Nails 5 POT ani obf pro !Nosferatu:4
Olivia 5 OBF POT vic bishop !Nosferatu:2
Raphael Catarari 5 OBF PRE aus pot tha !Nosferatu:4

Agatha 4 POT obf !Nosferatu:2
Agrippina 4 OBF pot Nosferatu:1
Beetleman 4 ANI obf Nosferatu:4
Sammy 4 ani obf pot Nosferatu:1

Clarissa Steinburg 3 ani obf Nosferatu:3
Darva Felispa 3 ani pot Nosferatu:3
Stick 3 ANI !Nosferatu:4

Dani 2 ani !Nosferatu:2
Nichodemus 2 pot Nosferatu:5

Main points of reference here are:
Nos Royalty
ANI weenie
black hand
ANI PRE OBF
for splash
Cock Robin rush combat

Library
1. Inside Dirt
2. Kindred Intelligence
3. Nosferatu Bestial
4. SchreckNET
5. Courier
6. Labyrinth, The

7. Nosferatu Kingdom
Type: Master
Requires: Sabbat Vampire
Cost: 2 pool
Master: unique location.
During your influence phase, lock to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a Nosferatu antitribu in your uncontrolled region.

8. Secret Library of Alexandria, The
9. Slum Hunting Ground

10. Warsaw Station
Type: Master
Requires: Camarilla Vampire
Cost: 2 pool
Master: unique location.
You may lock this card when a Nosferatu announces an undirected action. If that action is successful, the acting Nosferatu unlocks. You may burn this card (even if it is locked) to move a Nosferatu in torpor to the ready region.

Most cards works fine with "merged" clan, except Information Network, which is too good in combination with second tradition. As I don't really see +intercept as a way to go with !nos I've decided to drop it.

A quick thought:

If grouping were to be removed, should a rule be instated that says "All vampires in a crypt should be one-ofs, i.e. no duplicates."

How would that fare? Would it break the game?

LivesByProxy wrote:

A quick thought:

If grouping were to be removed, should a rule be instated that says "All vampires in a crypt should be one-ofs, i.e. no duplicates."

How would that fare? Would it break the game?

Yes it would; absolutely impossible to play anything coherent that has a star or even somewhat more important vampire than the others with such a restriction.

Why not restrict library cards to 1 per card too?


Also, grouping was very much needed. Trying to get rid of it would open a humongous can of worms.

If you want to you and your playgroup sure can implement any kind of restrictions you are inclined to and have a blast playing the game the way you prefer, though!

LivesByProxy wrote:

If grouping were to be removed, should a rule be instated that says "All vampires in a crypt should be one-ofs, i.e. no duplicates."

How would that fare? Would it break the game?

Well, all vampires have been designed knowing that they could be duplicated. But a variety of vampires are expected to be duplicated, such as the non-unique vampires who are supposed to be played together. e.g. Aabbt Kindred, the Hermana blood brothers, Tupdogs.

So you add an exception for the non-unique vampires.

Then you think about the Hermana situation and think "Oh wait, but none of the circles of will fill a whole crypt", and having vampires out of three different circles is worse than useless.

So you add an exception for the Blood Brothers.

Then you look at the Laibon. Each clan has 15 different vampires, with one additional advanced vampire. Some of those vampires will be good, some less so - it's just the way of things. Compare with the Brujah (picking a random Camarilla clan) who have 65 different vampires, and seven additional advanced vampires. Some of those vampires will be good, some less so - but are there enough good vampires to fill a whole crypt just of coherent Brujah that mesh well together? Probably.

Then you think, oh wait, we just mentioned advanced vampires. Don't they become a lot harder to play if you can only include one base and one advanced vampire in a crypt, rather than the current ability to have one or more of each? Don't advanced vampires already take a heck of a lot of effort to play? Aren't we making it a lot harder to use them well, if we restrict it to one of each per crypt? And sure, you can play Legacy or Epiphany or Gift of Experience - but those are pretty useless to you if you don't bring out either vampire, and with only two in a crypt, it's quite common that you won't see either.

Then you think about Anarchs, and think what about Anarch Convert? Didn't we take care of that already with the non-unique vampire exception? Unfortunately, Anarch Convert is usually very temporary - but is unique Now obviously, the Red Question is a pretty decent alternative, but having the option of a combination of either or both has more or less gone.

And that's before you get onto any vampires who have an unusual combination of disciplines, clans and/or abilities, who you can currently stack. This includes star vampire decks, but doesn't have to be only about them. Groups have sometimes been designed with a small splash of an out-of-clan discipline, knowing that that group can capitalize on it if it wants to by doubling or tripling up (or more) on some vampires. So a lot of those decks are going to be toast when there aren't suitable replacements - which sometimes there will be, but often there won't be, particularly for special abilities.

Can you explain the can of worms and why grouping was needed? I am a VTES noob, and even after reading about why grouping was needed on VTES Newbie (sites.google.com/site/vtesnewbie/common-questions) I do not understand the problem grouping fixed.

If players are allowed to grab *any* vampire they need from *any* clan or sect (excluding the grouping rule) because they need certain disciplines for their deck, what did grouping solve?

Thank you for your time.