file Rules update suggestion: Pre-Range into Preparation Step

14 Oct 2017 04:07 #83853 by Boris The Blade

"Only usable at the start of the first round of combat."

"Only usable at the start of combat."

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14 Oct 2017 09:23 #83857 by Ankha

"Only usable at the start of the first round of combat."

That is for Trap.

"Only usable at the start of combat."

That is for Torn Signpost.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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14 Oct 2017 09:33 #83858 by jamesatzephyr

We must work under the assumption that new players will have easy access to new cards with a cleaned up wording, because otherwise it means that publishing VTES is not economically viable and the whole discussion is moot anyway.


Economic viability isn't even remotely the point here.

If an old player turns up a tournament with a deck made of many, many old cards with completely different wording, new players have to learn both the old terminology and the new terminology. "Preparation" and "Before range is determined" do not bear any relation to each other. It's not like it's just a minor change of templating, where things have been shuffled around a bit but it's fairly clearly the same wording.

V:TES has been heavily criticised for having an endless number of keywords and terminology that new players need to learn, so creating a "preparation" step is yet another keyword for the players to learn. Because this is not a tidy-up of some obscure wording on a handful of cards (e.g. the removal and rewording of Paralyze), new players will encounter a lot of cards saying "Before range is determined". Not all of those cards will be reprinted immediately, and new players will not have all of those cards. Trap and Carrion Crows get reprinted in an early set? Probably, so new players may have encountered the reprinted text. Are you going to queue up to reprint Abjure or Foresee right now? Pretty unlikely. Yet players may well still encounter the text (both turn up in tournament winning decks, checking SecretLibrary), so they have to know what it means. So it takes one of V:TES's weaknesses - lots and lots of keywords to remember - and it doesn't make things better.
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14 Oct 2017 23:45 #83862 by Boris The Blade
@Ankha You misread: I didn't say start of round for trap, I said start of combat. Start of combat = start of the first round.

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15 Oct 2017 17:48 - 15 Oct 2017 17:49 #83865 by Ankha

@Ankha You misread: I didn't say start of round for trap, I said start of combat. Start of combat = start of the first round.

Indeed, so it's maybe a misleading way of writing the thing ;)

"on the first round of combat" echoes with the already existing "not usable on the first round of combat"

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 15 Oct 2017 17:49 by Ankha.

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16 Oct 2017 08:27 #83875 by Bloodartist

Pre-range and end of round definitely need to be in the rulebook. Those are major phases where pretty much any combat deck is supposed to play something. The immortal grapple timing is also awkward, but it is pretty much the only card to play in that phase, so I am not sure whether it is worth adding it to the rulebook.


I also think that pre-range and end of round need to be added to the rulebook.

I am not fond of the idea of renaming pre-range something else though. For one, 'preparation step' is a much longer word and more difficult to say, which means that people would likely start calling it something else in day-to-day play. Secondly renaming it doesn't seem to achieve anything in particular. In my opinion it should stay "pre-range step" to avoid confusion.

What is important is that pre-range would defined as a step of its own (obviously needed) and that cards printed after the change would then adhere to the step structure rather than invent additional steps.

End of round needs to be defined as a step as well, so that the timing of taste of vitae would be clearer to new players. Its such a common card.

Case Immortal grapple

I think the simplest solution would be to errata the card text of immortal grapple to say that its played at the end of maneuver step if the range is close (after both players have declined to play further maneuvers). If one card is the problem, rather change that card than the entire rules of the game. The actual function and timing of the card wouldn't change (at least its not my intention)

Overall we should consider errata:eing cards that create timing problems to use wording "at the beginning of" or "at the end of" <step X>. My intention is to keep the functionality and timing in relation to other cards the same, but make the card adhere to the existing step structure. I have cards like Obedience and mental maze in mind, which are theoretically played before pre-range step even....

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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