file Chopping Block: Red List

19 May 2018 17:06 #87181 by ReverendRevolver
So, being back I print is a great time to look at less than optimal mechanics and cards and make them cleaner and more playable, thus adding more content while removing clutter. Good trade, in theory.

So, something I'd love to get the treatment is the difficult to play and justify building around Red List.
Sure, there's people who win with it (Norm) but the flow is rough, and the trait isn't the setback for crypt selection it could be. Let's analyze:

Red List: Any Methuselah may use a master phase action to mark a Red List minion for the current turn.{OMFG you spend a whole not trifle MPA to "mark" someone who as already wanteddead or alive?} Any ready vampire she controls may enter combat with a marked Red List minion as a +1 stealth (D) action that costs 1 blood.{ at least ANY schmuk can pursue the wanted criminal, but at the additional cost of a blood. Before you embark on combat against some badass. }Each vampire can take this action only once each turn. If a vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a (D) action (including diablerie), his controller may search her library, ash heap and/or hand for a master trophy card to put on that vampire and then reshuffle her library or draw back up to her hand size as necessary. Other trophies may be moved to this vampire, as well (see section 1.6.2). This is done before the blood hunt referendum is called, if any.{ incentive seems legit. It's at least one trophy, not limited to this marking expensive action at least

Let's look at trophy rules:
Trophy: A trophy may be put into play using a master phase action (or can be retrieved as listed under "Red List" in section 11). It has no effect until it is moved to a vampire. When any vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a (D) action (including diablerie), the controller of the trophy may choose to move the trophy to that vampire. Any number of trophies in play may be moved to the vampire in this way (in addition to the single trophy that the vampire's controller may retrieve from her library, ash heap or hand). Once placed on a vampire, a trophy is controlled by the controller of the vampire it is on, and it cannot be awarded again.

Seems neat. After it moves, blood hunt called, so that's useful, etc.

But what if it was more important? What if it didn't take an MPA? what if it took a trifle and cost no blood? What if you could just rush any red list minion during your minion phase as a stealth action, and THAT is what made them "marked" ?

Would it not add interaction, the incentive to add trophies to non trophy decks, make red list minions cooler to print and see on tables? Would it be more relevant?

Or are we ok just having obtrusive clunky garbage rules indefinitely for not fully realized mechanics?

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19 May 2018 17:42 #87182 by jamesatzephyr

ReverendRevolver wrote: But what if it was more important? What if it didn't take an MPA? what if it took a trifle and cost no blood? What if you could just rush any red list minion during your minion phase as a stealth action, and THAT is what made them "marked" ?


Err, I think you're missing something here. Being "marked" is irrelevant, except that it allows a cardless rush. If you have a cardless rush that's allowed all the time, being made "marked" is totally unnecessary, because the only thing that marking does is give that cardless rush.

Minions don't have to be marked in order to trigger getting the trophies when killing them.

Since very few trophy hunter decks would really bother with marking as a central issue, the biggest issue that red list decks typically face is that of wasted actions - having to make someone red list in the first place is a big investment of resources to start with (the typical action from a titled vampire is not cheap, in most circumstances). Hence I suggested, as one aged example, a vampire along the lines of Anarch Convert who could red list a minion for you, so you waste fewer actions.

ReverendRevolver wrote: Would it not add interaction, the incentive to add trophies to non trophy decks, make red list minions cooler to print and see on tables? Would it be more relevant?


Not massively, in many cases. Putting in cards that are rely on what your opponents are playing is tricky, when it's quite uncommon - junking up your hand when you really wanted to draw a useful card instead. And you might see Mata Hari on your table, only to find that she's your grand-predator, and you really don't want to rip her face off because that would give your predator much too easy a ride.

Also, decks that are playing Red List minions can expect to have a few pops against them, so prepare for that eventuality. Quite a few Red List minions are pretty strong for their cost, so people want to beat them up anyway. If many decks in a tournament are packing a few Trophies and willing to beat up a cross-table Enkidu to get them, the prevalence of innately Red List minions in decks is unlikely to go up.


ReverendRevolver wrote: Or are we ok just having obtrusive clunky garbage rules indefinitely for not fully realized mechanics?


The world is more complicated than a binary choice between implementing your suggestions or being okay with clunky corner-case rules, which is why many people have made other suggestions over time.

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19 May 2018 19:32 #87184 by ReverendRevolver
I'm just trying to suggest making a keyword (not one I'm fond of, currently) more useful.

Frankly, the other angle for this is suggesting the carded action be playable from the ash heap. But, since imperator doesn't make an archetype out of blood hunt cards from the discard pile, I looked at this side of things.

The only thing binary I'm asking is the opinion of if it's worth bothering with editing these things to attempt improving now, or let it sit as is.

The quick consensus that I don't think needs asked is "do we all use red list and feel its viable" because we don't, and the second answer is "maybe".

I mean, we could keep everything as is and crop the beginning of the rule. 'During a methuselahs turn, any ready vampire can..." drop marking, clear out some rulebook space.

I'm not committed to anything but my general discontent at weak mechanics at a time when we could make things better.

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20 May 2018 00:15 #87190 by LivesByProxy
I am still of the opinion that diablerizing a vampire should automatically Red List the offender, as opposed to calling an automatic Blood Hunt (wherein no blocks can be declared and no action modifiers and reaction cards can be played) that automatically burns said offender if it passes.

A Red Listed vampire is permanently under the effects of the Blood Hunt anyways lore-wise, no? If the act of diablerie Red Listed vampires, then 1) it allows the player to get a few more actions out of said vampire at least, and 2) encourages players to run trophies, since diablerie would be more common because the penalty isn't quite as high or immediate.

:gang: :AUS: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of Celerity :CEL:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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20 May 2018 10:21 - 20 May 2018 10:26 #87193 by Bloodartist

LivesByProxy wrote: I am still of the opinion that diablerizing a vampire should automatically Red List the offender, as opposed to calling an automatic Blood Hunt (wherein no blocks can be declared and no action modifiers and reaction cards can be played) that automatically burns said offender if it passes.


I agree that blood hunt currently is too harsh, and fluff-wise makes sense only if all vampires in the game are Camarilla. We know this isn't the case. There are a great deal of powerful, individual and anarchistic vampires in the game, who care little for the laws of the camarilla. For these methuselah-level vampires to just get instaburned with blood hunt hurts my head. They should be able to massacre the riffraff coming after them without breaking a sweat, or at the very least evade them easily. Or calling bloodhunt on the sabbat cardinal? In what universe does that make sense?

Game mechanics wise this benefits too much a horde of smallcap "throwaway" vampires in my opinion, who are able to diablerize who they want because losing some random 1-3 cap is no big deal.

Id love if blood hunt would instead be "this vampire becomes red list", and being red list would mean permanent "haven uncovered" cardless rush being available. It would make more sense.

I really hate the "mind rape your minion, abactor, oops you burn" or 12-cap Stanislava calling veles hunt shenanigans.

"Do you believe in the power of the night?
If you want to go with me, refuse the light"
- Blutengel, Soultaker
Last edit: 20 May 2018 10:26 by Bloodartist.

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20 May 2018 13:44 #87198 by ReverendRevolver
I kind of like the suggestions so far but hold on.....

People play Veles Hunt without getting DTd? My mind is blown.....

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