file The Importance of Votes [Article]

28 Aug 2018 19:06 #90267 by tksolway
Greetings,

I've started a new site for our local gaming group and started to post some thoughts. Please take a look at the latest article.

solway.me/the-importance-of-votes/

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29 Aug 2018 14:44 #90289 by ReverendRevolver
Votes only get you so far. For example,
My Anson+Guns deck that's barely changed since 2009ish (ashurs) runs Anson(4),volker(3) Marcell(1), and a strong :CEL: 3-4 cap support cast. Unless something goes horribly wrong, there will.be 2 princes in my ready region. Weak voters, such as anything requiring votes to get titles and things without :pre: will be shut down by my second trad combat deck with only 4 votes. Things that run multiple princes and then try praxis seizures are still in trouble without vote push because my 4 plus a random Magagi or a pair of bishop/Primogen still hose them.
But that situation rarely comes up.
Why?
Because voting without :pre: is like combat without red cards.
Even using anarch daughters gives access to :pre: and thus makes you more able to get through than anything with. Voter captivation means that by not opting to utilize :PRE: in a vote deck you are immediately at a disadvantage against all other vote decks. :PRE: currently gives you a way to give a potential blocker -1 intercept, then proceed to use someone as small as Tara to parity shift for 5, play awe/BO/voter cap. Alone. Title(2) +vote card(1)+awe×=(5), since we played PP+BO(4)=12 votes at effectively 2 stealth to take 5 from probably your prey and gain 7 with a filled Tara EVEN WITH 4 VOTES AGAINST.
Now, I run a Cock Robin deck using Cock, Nik, and 1 copy of calebros. When I get all 3 out, I am very effective at reducing the total for the voter cap, but it still wont stop solid setite votes, good law firm, etc. Unless of course I'm sitting next to them and they cant generate that 5th piece of stealth.

So, weak (not using presence) vote decks can be relegated to begging for votes, but efficient ones can pass regardless, and while everyone adopting a plan to run votes to keep cap down can speed up tables, good vote decks will still pass votes.
My favorite currently assembled vote deck utilizes Maryanne(3) Dmitra(2) and a descending amount of ventrue princes and MuhktarBey to vote, bleed, second trad block, and Alastar people with an assault rifle.
Of course, stealth and block denial are limited, so if Neighbor john is next to you, your game ends if he gets a bowl (Carna of course can be kiss of ra'd) so that's gotta be blocked. But averaging 7-9 standing votes depending on predator aggression, in addition to having :pre: solidifies that a vote will go through if nobody has a DT. But against other voters, who again I will never worry about outvoting me, I still simply have enough to eliminate a full vampire with them capping if they run presence, due to the efficiency of :pre: vote push.

Again, if not for this dubious discipline, I would agree completely, and in the non-voting decks I mentioned, 4 votes on the table makes it hard for Cock or Anson to get a parity shift off without sweet talk. But packing your own votes only matters against those sort of decks, not against dedicated stuff.

The problem is voting may as well be an extra set of cards for vampires with :pre: due to power level of voter cap and its billion or so cards that give you votes.

But,
I enjoyed the article and agree that many vamps are underplayed due to 1 cap higher than other ones, even when the extra 1 pool worth of text could swing games.

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29 Aug 2018 15:54 #90291 by tksolway
I agree with you that PRE is a massive boost to vote decks. However, my article is about splashing votes into decks that aren't vote decks, and thus don't want to dedicate card slots to Dread Gaze and Bewitching Oration. Will a vote deck be running these? Sure, but if you look on the TWDA most decks that do pack Bewitching Orations only pack two to four of them. Meanwhile, the first deck in the TWDA that even features Dread Gaze is from 2011.

So while I agree with your assertion that most vote decks will have PRE, and therefore most vote decks will be able to push a vote through with Action Modifiers. Good ones do not pack enough Action Modifiers to push every single vote, they rely on permanent votes for that. So, if you are sitting in the swing position, will there be important votes you can't influence, quite possibly. But you may be able to influence the majority of the KRCs that get called, and that bonus is worth the crypt decision I discuss.

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30 Aug 2018 12:10 #90317 by ReverendRevolver
I've found that random votes in the crypt is a good source of 1 pool from someone's parity shift loot for sure.
Dread Gaze is terrible, and as much as I'd like to pretend more than 13to 16 of the existing 36 :dem: cards are playable, wrong and crosswise sucks.
If you aren't playing a deck deliberately having a billion standing votes, I would probably rate having a few votes as you describe as the second best way to influence vote decks, due to impact on them and their game (the first being DT, since its disciplinesless, sets the card back a turn for targets to escape p-shift range, try to avoid a banishment, or just whore around the table to not die).
Prisci block votes are definitely the most useful, as you say. Gisela is my favorite original harbinger, as she's quite the solid 7 cap in her own rite, for stalling out your prey with her innate action and 3 votes. Her over most 6cap HoS any day. Greensleeves is also a solid 7cap with her disciplines, the 3 votes is a sweet bonus.

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30 Aug 2018 13:23 #90318 by jamesatzephyr

tksolway wrote: I agree with you that PRE is a massive boost to vote decks. However, my article is about splashing votes into decks that aren't vote decks, and thus don't want to dedicate card slots to Dread Gaze and Bewitching Oration. Will a vote deck be running these? Sure, but if you look on the TWDA most decks that do pack Bewitching Orations only pack two to four of them. Meanwhile, the first deck in the TWDA that even features Dread Gaze is from 2011.


Dread Gaze is pretty much just terrible. Might as well make an argument about wall decks not running Eyes of the Dead, so transient intercept isn't needed.

On the point of Bewitching Oration use in political decks, there a few different ways this occurs. There are other vote pushers to consider: Awe is excellent, and Perfect Paragon has its uses due to its versatility. Political decks also tend to have a lot of reliable titles, not just tossing a few vampires in willy-nilly, so having a standing 4-6 votes by the time you flip out your second vampire is common. There are other forms of vote push that are powerful - perhaps the most obvious of which is Ventrue HQ, but other decks (Presence or not) may have their own options, like Power Structure, Foundation Exhibit, Unexpected Coalition etc. Some decks will be flipping out their own titles, such as weenie vote push passing several Crusades/Praxis Seizures very quickly, or bringing out Legacy of Pander etc. Some also bring out titles that have built-in vote benefits, such as Cardinal Benediction (sect-specific) or Justicar votes (extra votes for the clan). Political decks also have some of the better blood or gain options in the game - Voter Captivation plus your favourite master cards, and Consanguineous Boon - which may mean that they can flip out an extra title or two, because they have the spare pool to do it.

Decks with very light political options but which actually want to pass them may, as a result, find themselves in much greater need of transient vote push than dedicated vote decks.

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30 Aug 2018 16:14 #90322 by tksolway
I don't disagree with your points. There are many different forms of vote push. However, in my experience Vote decks do not play with enough push to push every vote they call. Would you disagree?

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